Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback (Patch 9) On identity and whether it's even worth having in its existing form

Firstly, I've given a non-binary character a roll to see as to how it'll work in terms of addresses and which Minthara scene would be picked, and while I haven't confirmed the mentions of "misgendering" that appear here and there (Steam forums, for instance) when it refers to the character's perceivable sex/gender, the Minthara scene definitely defaults to whichever one corresponds with the character's sex, as opposed to when you pick an opposite gender identity and it picks one based on that instead.

Somewhat iffy and, again, inconsistent - and with the plans to expand it into other languages mentioned in the patch notes it just seems ever more so like wasted effort since it's implemented very sloppily and because it'd feel even more awkward outside of English - the concept of established neo-identities outisde of separate, unlinked cases or certain castes/classes in some cultures (which still recognized the gender/sex binary and didn't uplift the concept of identity to the peak it's at these days) is a modern one, no matter what people might say, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to invent a very artificial and sentence-jumbling neo-pronoun in, for example, Russian - where the concept seems to have been brought as a novelty from the West, which certainly is a cultural/historical quirk it has... Anyhow, many languages with gendered verbs and adjectives have a really hard time adapting to the English-born cultural and social tendencies, and even native English speakers which find it awkward to use they or neo-pronouns seem to have a hard time with keeping it up. Plus, calling it "non-binary/other" implies that every other possible identity just also gets "they". I thought we were supposed to be all-encompassing here and stuff...

Going back to the points in the first paragraph, it does just all seem to be much too modern and requiring an established way to quickly spread information (the Internet) to believably be something other than so extraordinarily rare in a fantasy setting that a character like that might as well be a statistical improbability - especially outside of English language and the ability to just stuff "they" anywhere as prompted - no matter what the WotC say on the matter (with how loose they've been getting with the lore and the setting, I don't think there's that much credit to give them). Even if we are to come up with such a character - the male/female identity juggling can be applied here also - what exactly is there to identify out of? Ever since AD&D males and females were specifically described as "equally capable", and while there are specific gender roles here and there (serving wenches) and some cultures heavily influence what males/females can and can't do, what's the reason to specifically identify as something else rather than be someone who identifies with their sex but purposefully or otherwise contradicts their society? What would even drive one to take on a "standardized" non-binary identity in the first place when it's not a readily available, what is the reason? Even on Reddit people say that a non-binary/female-identifying male drow is quite likely to be dead more than anything, and even though the Eilistraee cult has examples of letting males partake in priesthood, it's not about shedding their male identity but rather taking on traditionaly female roles while still remaining themselves. It's also rather... irritating, I suppose? - to see characters rewritten to fit with the "correct" cultural values, like how the Sentinel from Elventree, who was a masked man with unknown appearance previously, was repurposed as a non-binary character with a feminine voice in the Tyrants of the Moonsea module for NWN. Who asked for that change, exactly, and why would you do that?...

...I could go on, but instead I just suddenly remembered how in Wildermyth you can pick your pronoun independetly of gender but when you select who your character is attracted to it's "men/women/anyone". Talk about double standards in plain sight, and it all circles back - once again - to the first paragraph here...

I also checked out what exactly happens if you cast Disguise Self and - lo and behold - now you are treated based on how you look rather than the identity. Taking on the appearance of a female/male specimen of some race makes people refer to the character as a female/male by pronoun and gendered terms, and the non-binary is just dropped completely. Even if said character looked exactly the same pre-disguise but had different identity that was somehow inherently understood and accepted. Again, adding to the whole immersiveness and coherent experience issue that identity introduces. If the purpose is to play a female/male character to correspond with the player's real life identity, why not simply... create a female/male character and roll with it? It provides the necessary appearance and the pronouns come pre-equipped, as it were. I suppose I just don't get it.

Honestly, I would just - repeating myself here, but still - prefer it a lot more if there were more gender-specific dialogue options/situations in the game. While it may hurt the experience for some, would one argue that there being unique opportunities for female/male Wardens in Dragon Age: Origins or how Caesar's Legion treated women in Fallout: New Vegas really added to the world building and the depth of the setting? While women and men in FR are, again, equally capable, one does not need to go far to find examples of the gender and perception mattering (female drow, once again). Heck, part of why I adore Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny and - to an extent, given how it's historical fiction, but one that oozes with care for the subject matter - Pentiment from Obsidian is the fact that they don't hesistate to present cultures and societies with different perception on the two sexes while still letting women and men deny their roles OR make good use of them without trying to awkwardly mix gender identity into the picture. Tyranny does play around with the vagueness of Kyros' gender, but it has different characters ascribe masculinity or femininity to Kyros based on what they think is the superior sex, or knowledge they have - while Voices of Nerath, whom people would likely describe as "non-binary" these days, is just set as male despite being a walking consciousness black hole.

It's specificaly the sex, the bodily mechanics exclusive to women and to men (or lack thereof) that are in play when it comes to some of the gender roles and functions delegated to women and men, and when a character from a setting without the more modern societal concepts (unless they are shoehorned in...) sees a clearly male or female figure (or at least describable as vaguely feminine/masculine), it'd probably be gendered based on appearance. It's what Disguise Self causes - and the fact that identity overrides that when you create a character is yet another weird incosistency. You have a quest about a mother who mourns the loss of her husband and makes a deal with a hag that involves her unborn child. Having the modern concept of gender identity next to that, or to not shying away of writing badass and masculine female characters (Karlach, Lae'zel to an extent) just does not feel genuine. Anyway, this has probably been long enough and only somewhat coherent.