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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Since all this "gendering" came up i have been thinking that i would like to have altenative genders for the NPCs. So to say a switch from Male to female for the NPCs. I guess the stories will be pretty much the same but with all this "freedom" it is a thing of preferrence isn't it? So if i want a male character but want to see how the romances turn out without going homosexual, i cannot. I would rather be bitten by a female Vampire then.  I think that could be pretty cool 
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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In a vacuum, your suggestion would be kind of cool if well done. Seeing all the slight differences of a similar world where important NPCs are genderswapped?!?!! Unfortunately, one of the following ~has to be true.
1.) The swapped (I assume you want both sex and gender to be changed) characters act exactly the same, except for in sex scenes.
2.) The swapped characters act different, reflecting cascading differences that come from growing up as a different sex. Societal roles, norms, and all that. E.g., Minthara is now a male Drow who grew up in a matriarchal society, and thus would have a different personality/goals/outlook.
If #1 is true...we're treading perilously close to a change made *solely* for sex scene viewing changes. I suppose also romance, but you already have the choice to romance NPCs regardless of Tav's gender/race/sex. Larian now would have to animate twice the # of sex scenes to account for both versions of each NPC. Additionally, this minimal-effort change risks making some NPC's personalities/backstories inconsistent, if there's any gender-dependent aspect to those. And finally, trans persons are a minority that face injustice and real harm from society, so including gender options is an attempt to normalize their existence. The same can't really be said for the reasoning behind genderswapping NPCs.
If #2 is true, then that would require a TON of work, enough that it's probably not worth it. Also, the developer would be treading perilously close using gender-stereotypes and making statements on various gender expectations/societal roles.
tl;dr:
- If minimal effort is put in by Larian, it could introduce inconsistencies in NPC backstories/personalities, would still require work to animate additional sex scenes, and would be less real-world beneficial/inclusive than adding PC gender options.
- If a lot of effort is put in...obviously it'd take away from other things in the game.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Joined: Feb 2022
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Well put! I'd been mulling over this suggestion trying to work out why it made me uneasy, but you've now saved me the effort. I think you're spot on. EDIT: I wouldn't rule out all possible NPC gender swapping. For example I wondered in another thread if a way to introduce romances with trans characters might be to have a character who was cis in some possible worlds and trans in others, but I don't think that's something that should be done in BG3 or rushed into, and if done at all should be done extremely carefully if at all for the reason you give. There is more to gender identity than appearance and a few additional lines, particularly for a character that comes from a society where gender matters. Though changing the gender of a character can absolutely work in some circumstances with the right performances - look at m/Shep and femShep. And because in Faerun in general doesn’t have the same sort of structural factors related to gender that could give people outlooks based on that, it may not be a huge issue for most of the existing romances other than Minthara. But still ... probably best avoided unless designed into the game from the start with a specific purpose in mind.
Last edited by The_Red_Queen; 06/01/23 07:53 PM. Reason: Addendum
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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I'm not per se against just swapping the models and voices, but it will probably not rank high on Larian's priorities as romance is a small part of the game.
It sounds like a top idea for a mod, though. For the game, there is still so much to fix (mechanics (Like stealth), UI (camera issues, gameplay balance (classes/feats), general animation quality, quest paths (e.g. knocked out NPCs are treated as dead), dialogue choice (bugs and class specific writing), horrible bugs (my items disappear, pathfinding display error), even the enemy intelligence (poor strategy, placement and worse use of turns on select enemies)).
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addict
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Joined: Aug 2022
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I would love some gender-swapping 🥰, that would entice me to :
1) Play an Origin character. For instance : a female Astarion, Gale or even Wyll.
2) Romance other candidates and not just Astarion 😅, such as male Shadowheart or potentially female Gale.
I don't think things needs to change with the writings.
However, I do think the main issue would be :
1) Adding Voice Acting for all those characters.
2) Changing the lines (Writing + Voice Acting) of characters using gendered pronouns to switch to the other polar opposite gender (assuming binary nature).
3) Adding new animation for the now infamous to-be-sex-scenes 😅 (please don't let this be another thread about this, please don't, please don't, please don't...).
Those would probably require a lot of ressources.
So, I don't really have hope that this could actually happen.
But, it is absolutely a fun and interesting thing to think about 💜!
And I agree, that would be pretty cool 😊!
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I am well aware of the amount of work a real swap would entail. And also that it probably is not high on the prority list.
I do not want to go the way of implementing things for certain groups of people or use any reasoning in that direction. That would go the way of a political discussion. We got enough of those already and this is still just a game.
I was acutally just thinking of the party NPCs, since those have probably the longest screentime. Ofc you could also add NPCs like minthara or all NPCs since if you start with one, there will probably cries of "why this and not that".
for me it was just an idea that came up while contemplating who i want to add to the party this run and came up with the thought that a female version of astarion with his behavior could be interesting.
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addict
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Joined: Aug 2022
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I'm not sure I understand the issue mentioned by @mrfuji3 and @The_Red_Queen. Could someone shed some lights, please?
I have in mind the same logic that can be found in game like Dragon Age 2 were there is a male Hawke and a female Hawke.
Or how sometimes, there are movies were the main character was expected and written as a male but cast with an actress. Like Salt with Angelina Jolie.
And, in my opinion, it mostly worked. To me, it allows to break tired tropes, every now and then.
I am missing something? I legit would love some perspective on this.
Last edited by MelivySilverRoot; 06/01/23 08:00 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2019
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I'd also be a good chunk of change for all the new voice acting that would be required, I hear it's pretty expensive.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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I do not want to go the way of implementing things for certain groups of people or use any reasoning in that direction. That would go the way of a political discussion. We got enough of those already and this is still just a game. Unfortunately, I think given the societies many of us live in, the idea of changing the gender of a character from male to female or vice versa is intrinsically political, either because it is shown impacting their characters or relationships or because it isn’t. Both options would, to me, be making a statement. Which is why I think it is probably best avoided unless planned from the start and done carefully and well. But I completely sympathise with your desire to keep real world political discussions out of this thread so … mouth zipped!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2022
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The amount of work poured into making custom models, animations, voice acting, lore and promotional material is way too much to consider doubling it for a marginal percentage of players. It would be like making twice the same movie by changing all the actors on each version.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jan 2023
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I'm not sure I understand the issue mentioned by @mrfuji3 and @The_Red_Queen. Could someone shed some lights, please?
I have in mind the same logic that can be found in game like Dragon Age 2 were there is a male Hawke and a female Hawke.
Or how sometimes, there are movies were the main character was expected and written as a male but cast with an actress. Like Salt with Angelina Jolie.
And, in my opinion, it mostly worked. To me, it allows to break tired tropes, every now and then.
I am missing something? I legit would love some perspective on this. It might lead to some criticism that they didn't get enough into how something like gender would impact someone's story. If there's ever a few incompatible details, I don't think It would be that bad If they're just changed. Since people want "X character, but fe/male", I mean. "Default", as envisioned, and the gender swapped option. Maybe not philosophically superior, but people don't have super high expectations or something 😅
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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I'm not sure I understand the issue mentioned by @mrfuji3 and @The_Red_Queen. Could someone shed some lights, please?
I have in mind the same logic that can be found in game like Dragon Age 2 were there is a male Hawke and a female Hawke.
Or how sometimes, there are movies were the main character was expected and written as a male but cast with an actress. Like Salt with Angelina Jolie.
And, in my opinion, it mostly worked. To me, it allows to break tired tropes, every now and then.
I am missing something? I legit would love some perspective on this. In your example of Hawke, it's much more important to allow gender-freedom because Hawke is a PC for a past game. So inserting e.g., a Male Hawke into DAI would potentially mean that 50% of DAI players are now playing in a different continuum/timeline than they played DA2 in. Additionally, Hawke is a blank/neutral-ish slate whereas NPCs in BG3 have set personalities/goals/etc and are more tied into the entire game. Basically, a gender-swapped Hawke is close to a gender-swapped Tav than a gender-swapped NPC (e.g., Astarion/Lelianna). Also, Hawke is only present for a subset of the game, so the additional work required is limited. And hmmmmm, while the ability to play as BG3 companions is possibly larger argument for allowing you to choose your own gender, it also weighs against that option by the increased amount of work. 5+ origin companions, for BOTH situations where they're a companion and the PC, accounting for their personalities & interactions with NPCs, throughout the entire game...it all adds up.
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Volunteer Moderator
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Volunteer Moderator
Joined: Feb 2022
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I'm not sure I understand the issue mentioned by @mrfuji3 and @The_Red_Queen. Could someone shed some lights, please? I think that would be tricky to do without devolving into the sort of political discussion that the OP quite rightly asks us to avoid, so my apologies for breaking my promise to zip it. I definitely will after this!
But absolutely there are examples where genders are swapped or alternative genders can be picked and it works. As you say, there’s Hawke, and I’d updated my thread above to mention Shepard.
And certainly swapping the gender of a character can shed a new light on it or break tired tropes, but that, I think, is because it has a political resonance. Not in a big party political way, but the same character with a different gender can feel different because just changing their gender changes their relationship to their context, their interpersonal relations and our expectations, when we live in gendered societies like many of ours still are. And if you change the gender of only one character and they have a romantic story arc, then you also potentially change their sexuality and that carries another set of politics with it. And not all differences are socially imposed, either, someone who can get pregnant, for example, might have different feelings about sex than someone who can’t, or the biological and social aspects can get tied up, for example a male character who leaves his children might be viewed in a different way than a female one. And showing that can be a really interesting and good thing, but if done without care could trivialise or ignore the impact that unequal social structures, prejudice and even inherent biology can have on individuals … and that I certainly can’t get into without being (even more) political.
In most of Faerun, this is probably less important than many places here, given that for all its problems it tends to be a less sexist and homophobic society than many of ours, and therefore many of the characters might well work as any gender. But there are notable exceptions, such as the bulk of drow society. And whether any of the above matters will depend on the stories being told as well.
I hope that helps clarify at least a little why I think this might be a more politically fraught suggestion than it might initially seem, and of course this is just my own personal take.
I really am shutting up now!
Last edited by The_Red_Queen; 06/01/23 10:21 PM. Reason: Put political stuff in spoiler tags
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
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addict
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Joined: Aug 2022
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Thank you @mrfuji3, @Silver/ and @The_Red_Queen for your answers! Putting this in spoiler since it's more off-topic : BG3 have set personalities/goals/etc and are more tied into the entire game. That's the thing, the way I see it, those things are not related to or defined by genders. But I hear you guys, I see your points 🙂 All I'll say is : it's complicated (I think that's a fair statement 😄) and I personally will leave it there. it also weighs against that option by the increased amount of work. 5+ origin companions, for BOTH situations where they're a companion and the PC, accounting for their personalities & interactions with NPCs, throughout the entire game...it all adds up. That, yes, I fully agree 😅 But, like stated by OP, this thread is mostly theoretical ; not so much to expect this to be in the game. "What if' questions can sometimes be the start of fun/harmless conversations that won't lead to anything concrete *thinking of conversations with a certain elven vampire*.
Last edited by MelivySilverRoot; 06/01/23 09:35 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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I like fixed characters, don't like when characters are changed just to suit the audience's metanarrative preferences.
My opinion on the issue might be a bit tired for some of you by now.
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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This sounds like a lot of work for a middle amount of payoff in terms of replayability. While you don't have to do additional writing for the characters, you will have to make the equivalent of twice as many characters (character models, voice acting, perhaps different animations, etc.)? I'd rather just have more NPCs.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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I do not want to go the way of implementing things for certain groups of people or use any reasoning in that direction. That would go the way of a political discussion. We got enough of those already and this is still just a game. Unfortunately, I think given the societies many of us live in, the idea of changing the gender of a character from male to female or vice versa is intrinsically political, either because it is shown impacting their characters or relationships or because it isn’t. Both options would, to me, be making a statement. Which is why I think it is probably best avoided unless planned from the start and done carefully and well. But I completely sympathise with your desire to keep real world political discussions out of this thread so … mouth zipped! Well, yes. that is the reason why i mentioned it. Stuff like this gets political because some people want it to be. People want to be offended ad jump at every chance. And this would surely give them a pretty big one. Personally i think that changing the genders of the (playable eventually) NPCs would give the game some freedom. I am a normal human with preferrences and dislikes and also predjudices and because of those, certain parts of the game will probably ever be hidden from me. I know i could jump over my shadow but i usually play games to feel good and enjoy myself, going against my dislikes might be a good thing from a certain viewpoint but knowing me i would end up deleting that save because it does not feel....right. For me, putting political reasoning into the idea of making a playthrough fun for more people is just a way of trying to get attention, either for themselves or to a certain topic. We also have enough of that. But apart from the outcries this might create, the money and effort involved in a change like this will surely kill this idea anyway 
Last edited by UnknownEvil; 07/01/23 04:26 PM.
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