Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback I don't get Wyll

Just want to say I don't get Wyll either and almost never have him in my party. All of the other characters seem to have such strong personalities and Wyll is just a wannabe hero that lies and used to be a coward/weak. That's it. That's the whole personality.

About Wyll and the alcohol: I think that is for now very subtle and well done. As a comparison I have Oghren from Dragon Age, who was just awful. I don't think, alcoholism should be used as comical relief. I think, it is handled better with Wyll and I wouldn't mind to see a conclusion of that situation.
I do like Wylls darker sides, I think, he knows his shortcomings very well and his heroic persona is maybe as much a mask to convince himself as others. So that works for me.
I agree about the stats, they are awful and don't fit with the Blade of Frontiers.
I also would hope, they change his backgrounds - I don't get, why all of our male companions have to be from higher social status. Wyll would work well as a commoner.

Cheers for sharing. I can see why Larian might want to tie Wyll’s story into the previous games by means of his family history, and in general am in favour of strengthening these kinds of links with the lore. I don’t rule out that the story in the end could justify the choice to make him noble, though my doubts remain. Plus I still don’t like that all the male party members so far seem to have come from privileged backgrounds. Where are my working class heroes? I’m joining the Sharran revolution with Shadowheart!

There'll be Minsc... but yeah, meager pickings

There's no doubt choices to be made that would have made Wyll more engaging. I feel like they had the background planned, a whole plot. No character to give it to. /Then/ made up Wyll. Instead of, well. Making up a character concept like Astarion's and adding some locations. I think this was a problem with Shadowheart, as well, but they fixed her.

Yes, absolutely alcoholism should not be trivialised. And though I think even Oghren had his moments, and that drunk people can sometimes be funny even if alcoholism is no joke, I agree that how it’s handled with Wyll right now is much subtler, more interesting and more respectful. I’d also agree that this aspect is pretty well done from a writing perspective, though I’m not as happy with the animation or performance.

In case it wasn’t clear from my original post, I don’t think Wyll should be made *more* of an alcoholic (or at least a drunk) than he already is, but was trying to say that this aspect of his character is already right there and much of his behaviour is more comprehensible when considered in this context. I don’t think you could remove his relationship to alcohol without changing him significantly, unlike his noble background or experience as a thief.

And, as long as it’s handled sensitively, I also think there’s promise in a redemption arc that involves overcoming the metaphorical demon drink as well as a literal devil.

Not that I want alcohol to be all there is to Wyll as a character, just that I don’t think chucking in more backgrounds is what’s needed in order to make him interesting. And he’s already got other stuff going on, e.g. in his pact with Mizora and his regrets about that, his conflict over his pride in being seen a hero but knowledge that he didn’t get to be one honestly, or fear he’s not one at all, and his anger and resentment towards goblins, Mizora and himself that I think gives plenty of material for an engaging character, if not a necessarily likeable one, at least to begin with.

But again, I can totally see why other folk might not agree.

Seemingly most people agree that he's one of the these characters that missed their shot at being 3D and ended up 2D for one reason or another. 2D surrounded by clutter. 3D except a hollow middle which makes him look like a liar. A lack of coherency. Not worth remembering, stand in "good" alignment, no individualism.

Wyll is ... a persona, and Wyll, the man. Wyll the persona is failing gameplay wise. We don't have pact of the blade. Wyll is unplayable in character without medium armour feat, starting level 4. Nonetheless he's a Level 2/3 recruit. Wyll the persona is hiding the warlock aspect, yet the first thing we see... Is what's obviously a warlock.

Wyll, "The Blade"
> Multi class or stat adjustment.
> Level 4 recruit with some improved gear (good and specific to him medium armour, no random ass rapier).
> Wyll hides being a warlock more.
> Pact of the blade.
> We get to call him out early and have an actual confrontation about who he is.
> Companions are more uneasy about his pact.

Wyll, the man
> Depending on his arc, it might break or make him.
> Wyll is not used to traveling with people. Let him be more awkward.
> Make him early 20ties with little experience as the blade... OR make him stop running away with his tail between his legs at every mean comment. Man has no backbone.
> Choosing the psychological effects of learned helplessness to examine is not necessarily a problem, but the handling falls short.
> Have him react more strongly to being weakened. He sold his soul. Where's the anger? The panic? He has to face it, Wyll could never complete his revenge without the party.
> > The threat of being reverted to his pre- blade status is worth a break down. Where is it? Alcohol or no alcohol, he's taking this too well.

Yes, I think, they should not overdo the alcohol part. And yes, animations need work, not just with Wyll.
I see him drinking so much as coping with the stress of having to find Mizora, get rid of the tadpole and be confronted with Spike or his lackey, the one from the windmill, where Wylls hero mask slips the first time. And If I remember correctly, the first drinking scene is right after the windmill incident.

I can’t quite recall, though I think he might have the idle animation of drinking from a flask in camp even before he invites you to drink with him. I’m going to have to pay more attention to this in future!

I don't remember either right now, but you might be right.

I usually take Wyll in my team caster party! I think his voice actor does a good job. It doesn’t bother me that he has lost some of his power, as seems to be the case with most or all of our companions. Not really looking forward to Mizora, though, especially if she stays at the camp. Otherwise, I don’t have strong feelings about him and will have to see how his story progresses!

I never got the impression that he was an alcoholic, though.

Hard to say. I knew an alcoholic you never would have known was drunk. In hindsight, she was just a bit /too/ jovial. All the time. That's what really never made you realize something was off.

There's also the question of how much is too much. Wyll certainly likes turning to a bottle. It's not particularly in your face, but it's also not hidden. I'd call it a dependency

It’s so interesting that we can all play the same game and come away with different impressions! I agree that we don’t have enough info to be sure of a specific diagnosis of alcoholism, but for me the facts that Wyll seems to drink too much, seems drunk when spoken to at camp and displays behaviours that I’ve found typical of people with not entirely healthy relationships with alcohol were the things that seemed most obvious about him. But of course everyone is free to interpret the story and characters in whatever way makes most sense to them!


Case in point, I personally had never seen the Wyll we meet in BG3 as immature. He was when he made the pact, but now seems to hold his younger self in contempt. Yes he plays up the “Blade of Frontiers” persona, but I don’t get the impression he really believes he’s a hero. He feels responsibility to the myth and thinks ordinary folk need and deserve heroes, and tries as much as he can to act up to the role. But when he does that, to me it always smacks a bit of desperation and someone trying too hard to convince others and himself, but is now really too old and experienced to buy his own BS. I feel he works better as someone who is at least in his 30s, who has been trapped in the pact long enough to be thoroughly disillusioned, ground down by the demands of his patron and despair that he’ll ever win free, but despite everything still has some pride in the good he has managed to do and a streak of idealism, determination and optimism that offer some hope of redemption. But also a destructive streak of anger at the goblins, at Mizora, at his father and at himself that could lead him down darker paths. And because he’s not someone who is used to being honest with others, or even with himself, it’s very hard to be sure of who he really is or where his story is actually likely to go.

Of course, as many of us have said, he’s also not particularly consistently presented and it doesn’t always feel that the writers know exactly what they’re doing with him. Though perhaps they’ll surprise me and pull all the strands together in a satisfying way. Or perhaps they will make some changes that will help him make sense.

I guess the one thing that’s certain is that many of us will still have different takes on who he is and whether the character works, even after we’ve played the full game!

Alcoholics drink to get through the day, Wyl is drinking because the veneer of his heroic persona cracked for a moment, bringing up his past. I don't remember which fight triggers that scene, but they're both goblins that knew him before he was the Blade, and were responsible for whatever event drove him into a pact with Mizora.

I'm not sure what people consider inconsistent about him.

That was triggered by the windmill incident.
I agree, he isn't inconsistent. His character does make sense.

Will wait and see! If him being alcoholic is what they are going for, there will likely be scenes about it in future content. Otherwise, I don’t take one scene where you have drinks with him to mean he is an alcoholic.

Well, to be fair it's not just one drinking scene. He's continually swigging from a flask pretty much every time we're in camp, though now I'm looking more closely at him I see that the flask is often an invisible one. I'm sure that you used to be able to see it in his hands in the idle animation! (I'll leave aside my suggestion that thinking of him as a drunk, albeit a functioning one, makes sense of a lot of the elements of his behaviour: I accept that's very much a matter of personal interpretation.)

In terms of inconsistency, my take is that, eg, sometimes he seems to mean his Blade of Frontiers schtick whereas sometimes it feels more like self-parody, he seems to want to help people but when it doesn't fit with his aims he's willing to throw them under the bus such as his dismissiveness of Barcus's plight at the windmill or how far he's willing to go with Liam, then there's the fact that he often comes across as a jovial soul but then suddenly displays disturbing wells of hatred and anger. I don't think that these inconsistencies (contradications? tensions?) are bad - real people are often inconsistent. And it makes a lot of sense that he's conflicted about his Blade of Frontiers persona given he feels it's constructed on a lie, and that he is truly desperate about breaking his pact and willing to go to almost any lengths to find Mizora and deal with it, and he can be honest about wanting to help people without being completely selfless. And it's perfectly plausible that an apparently jovial person could be capable of sudden mood swings to great anger. Larian can certainly develop his character in a way that makes sense of these tensions in him, I just meant that they make it hard to get a handle on him right now, and I'm guessing that's at least partly because he could go in different directions depending on the choices we make.

Swigging from a flask is tropotypical alcoholic behavior, or it's pollyjuice. If we saw more of him using it as a coping mechanism, without prompting, maybe I'll be more on board. Contradictory is a much better term than inconsistent, I agree with that assessment. So often people confuse a character's inherent contradictions for poor writing that maybe my hackles rise a little whenever someone calls a character 'inconsistent'.

Wyl's got a classic fatal flaw, the most classic, hubris. I think we're meeting him on the rebound, or maybe we've yet to see him hit bottom.

I still think the delivery of his flaw falls short. Most of his issues are just him being complex, but the man with issues around his lack of usefulness a mile deep, now reduced to this incredibly weakened state... Takes it all perfectly well. What?

His struggles with spike and casual drinking don't really make up for it to me...

I'm sure there'll be more going on under the surface If you choose him as an origin character. As a party member, he's missing some scenes to round off the impression

Fair enough. For me, the combination of the performance, animation and writing for Wyll isn't quite working, so I'm not as confident as I'd like to be that all the ... complications ... of his character are part of a coherent creative vision, and that there aren't elements of poor writing/performance. But as I've said, I can certainly read what we're given on screen in a way that makes a complex, contradictory sort of sense, and I am willing to take it in this light in the hope that this is really what Larian are going for. But I still wish that I didn't feel quite as much as though I am going out on a limb to trust them here, and that I found Wyll more convincing without having to extend this principle of charity. Just my take, of course, and it's clear not everyone feels the same way.


Again, I think there is an interpretation of this that makes sense. Wyll is not used to being honest with others: he sees the Blade of Frontiers persona as a front that he needs to act up to. It's entirely plausible that he's panicking inside (and in fact that is supported by his behaviour at the windmill and potentially with Liam) but just isn't being open about this with us. And he wants to be brave and optimistic, so perhaps he's also trying to fool himself as much as us.


But yes, fundamentally I am with you in thinking his character isn't quite coming off yet. Perhaps more scenes would help (and actually I don't mind if these come later in the game than we can currently reach, as long as they help shed convincing light on his behaviour in retrospect). I do feel that it's more than that that's bothering me, though, even though I'm struggling to put my finger on exactly what. I have attributed it to what I see as the extraneous guff in his background and wooden, jerky animation (and performance) in the past, but I'm not totally convinced I've diagnosed my own issues. It's even possible that my unease is exactly what Larian are trying to elicit, and that it will make Wyll's full story all the more satisfying when we get it! I live in hope, though also some doubt.

BTW, the above quote is from another thread but seems relevant here. I confess that since we got more recent confirmation that Larian are still intending multi-classing to be part of the full release, I have wondered if they've not always intended Wyll to start with at least a level of rogue and a level of warlock. That would make sense of them including that otherwise somewhat random thief element in his backstory, give him his rapier proficiency (on the basis that he was a rogue before he was a warlock) and give us a less evil choice of rogue to take along on our adventure.

It would make it even more important that his stats were tweaked to give him better dexterity, but it does seem an alternative way of making him plausible as the Blade of Frontiers than making him Pact of the Blade when we meet him.

I don't have enough 5e knowledge to understand how good a multi-class option warlock/rogue is, but from some quick googling some people at least think it's a decent combo.