Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback I don't get Wyll

Has the higher charisma among the available companions.
Makes the worst decisions in dialogue.
I guess being able to finesse a situation doesn't mean you choose to do so lol.

I really think this should be revised. It does seem outside even Wyll’s changeable character to just go straight for torturing Liam, especially given his high charisma. I can see that he’s too angry and scared to be able to manage persuasion or deception, but surely he’d have a go at intimidating Spike. If handed control of the conversation I think he should at least try to intimidate Spike (getting a roll) and only move to torture if that fails.


I agree, when we let companions take control, they should act as they would without our interference, and we should be able to draw conclusions about who they are from their behaviour in these situations.

The windmill scene is a bit disturbing but plausible given what we’re shown about Wyll, and I think most main characters could find some degree of sympathy. His treatment of Liam if we don’t give him an alternative is beyond any decent bounds, though. I think it would do plenty to illustrate the darkness in his character that he’s willing to entertain the idea of torturing an innocent, and can be persuaded to do that or will resort to it if intimidation fails, without going as far as the game currently does.

I think we're seeing that Wyll's character is compromised wherever Mizora is involved, both his desire to do good, and his need for revenge.

If we're talking about character inconsistency this certainly approaches it, but it's still nothing like what happens to Lae'zel when she meets the Kithrak.

I do think you’re right. And I also think it’s a valid character choice. But I still wish Larian would do this without going quite so far in the case of Liam.


Lae’zel is the party member who most often gets left in my camp, so I don’t have any strong views on this scene as I don’t feel I know her well enough to either criticise or understand it. I keep meaning to use her more often but I’m just not drawn to fighters as a class. And then I wonder why none of my party can lift a rock, jump a gap or hold the front line …

I think the issue with the Wyll torture scene might be that it comes to early. In fact I think that structurally we just see too much of Wyll's story unfold in too short a length of time. In terms of story progression, we meet him pretty early in act one, he's presented as a braggy, flamboyant hero, then we learn about his cruel, vengeful streak and willingness to set aside innocents in favor of violent vengeance, his backstory with his father and the flaming fist, the fact he's willing to torture a man, his pact with a devil, all in the first act. I think it would make more sense and feel more clear if that stuff was all spaced out more. Having him torture someone should be a shocking moment saved for after the story has really established him as a good guy, with maybe a few chinks revealed in his armor. Instead we actually start seeing the facade slip really early. I don't think the torture scene has the bite that it should because we don't have a lot of time spent with Wyll the noble hero.

I think you’re right. If we’re going to go that dark with Wyll’s character - at least off his own bat without encouragement from the PC - it should be saved for later.

Wyll has 16>18 Charisma, but he's acting like a common farmer. He's written as a low charisma character. A pathetic victim. An obvious liar who toots his own horn.

High charisma characters are supposed to be something special - intriguing, impressive, amiable, admirable, natural leaders even if they choose not to. It's the perfect visage to hide your flaws or dark secrets and devil pacts. A charismatic character should have a presence that stands out. That's what would catch a devil's eye as well. What did Mizora ever see in this person worth making a pact for? Wyll fades into the background until he steps up to complain to goblins who abused him. Goblins.

They should revise this character entirely, keeping in mind what high charisma means. It should allow them to influence others. Wyll is only influencing me to leave him at camp. Or they could make him a Cha 10 Warlock to keep things consistent but I don't see how that would make him an attractive companion.

On the other hand, Lae'zel with 8 Charisma is written as a confident, impressive character who gets things done. When she says with conviction we go to the Creche, I want to follow her to the creche. She's able to assume leadership in the beginning. She should have at least 12 Charisma. So perhaps Larian just need to figure out what Charisma means. 8 Charisma means you're weak of personality, a quiet nobody.

I agree with you that Wyll doesn't come across as someone with strong will, but I think Larian thinks he's very charismatic. I do find him fun to talk to, witty and amusing. I don't recall what his actual wisdom score is, but I think he comes off as good with words, but low wisdom, so he doesn't think things through, he's foolhardy, and even though he can talk a big game, he doesn't have the conviction to back it up.

I do disagree with you about how Lae'zel is written though. I don't think confidence and charisma go hand in hand the way you imply. Low charisma doesn't mean necessarily being quiet, even in the players handbook it says that a low charisma character can come across as abrasive. I think that's what they're going for with Lae'zel, she's meant to come off as abrassive and unlikeable. Bossy and acting superior in a way that most people don't like. She's confident, but in a way that's meant to feel unearned. In a situation where charisma is actually called for, I totally believe Wyll could sweet talk his way through a situation whereas Lae'zel would just make things worse and escalate it.

Well true, low Charisma can also mean you're abrasive enough to get bad reactions out of everyone. Then you just need to follow through with it being empty confidence. And Lae'zel gets a bit annoying with the superiority.

Wyll being witty and amusing could be the fail here. If they think that's enough to make him charismatic, they're thinking too small. A high charisma character will also be abrasive when that gets the desired result. A high charisma character just IS someone who commands respect and attracts followers. It's attitude, behavior, confidence, social skills, everything. Not just a one trick pony being good at sweet talking. People who are witty sweet talkers but not charismatic are quite obvious, and their schtick gets old fast.

Not true always. As someone who is called charismatic in my role play (albeit lawfully evil) by about 90% of people , I can tell you that charismatic characters are usually slow spoken, speak quietly but in a tone that does not echo - voice carries far. They are dominant by interrupting, speaking last, using obscure theories and philosophies, using subtle hints of threats, speak about themselves { run on sentences like I intended here on purpose}. They give part credit for success to team mates while stealing 90% of the credit. Are lazy, usually wearing exotic weapons to show off, and run conjured spells to lazy out of fighting.

For larian the best example to model is Daeran from wotr. He also fits my description perfectly

If that were true in the least, why is the meathead Paladin a Cha class?

well this is EA so her story isn't really in the game yet... you get a few clues but he doesn't come clean and we don't get to meet her yet
perhaps after August we will see the real Wyll in act 1

I really like Wyll. I think he is a very well-written character. From what I understand, he was from a noble family. His family/father probably had high expectations of him, which he failed to meet. He was a disappointment to his peers in the Flaming Fist, for whatever reason, be it alcohol, theft, or deception. To me, Wyll seems like a very flawed individual. I see him as someone who is a good person deep down and wants to be good. He wants to live up to the expectations people have of him, but for whatever reason, he just continues to fail and fall short. Then comes his near-death experience at the hands of the goblins. I have seen some people describe Wyll as someone who is fake and went to a demon to be this con artist of a "hero". Some say he is a narcissist and a pathological liar. I don't see it that way. I see a very insecure man tormented by his own failings and shortcomings. From what I have gathered, Wyll was left for dead by goblins. He was beaten, humiliated, his eye cut out, and he was dying. Mizora came to him as he was lying there dying and offered to not only save him, but give him the ability -- the power -- to get revenge. And he took it. Now, he has these powers granted to him by Mizora, so he starts to become this Legend that he always wanted to be, but could never measure up to because of his own failings and shortcomings. He is human. He is fallible. Like any of us. Who knows how any one of us would act given that power. The ability to be what you always wanted to be, but just always fell short of the goal? I don't see this as horrible as some people are making it out to be. Honestly, it comes off as so very real and so very "human".

Anyways, this all comes with a price tag. Now Wyll has a price to pay -- this power comes from a demon, who probably demands some evil things of Wyll. Wyll isn't evil though, so now he's struggling with this pact that he made. He also desperately wants to keep the truth hidden, therefore all the evasion and lies. Wyll doesn't come off as narcissistic to me at all. He comes off as a very insecure man, someone who struggles with self-resentment. He hides all this behind this bravado and this "Blade of Frontiers" persona. I honestly think he is a very well-written character. Very nuanced, with complexity and layers. I noticed someone said that he should have just been a Lawful Evil "Edwin", and I disagree with that. Writing him as a Lawful Evil "Edwin" would just be another generic fantasy cliche. Oh, Evil guy makes a pact with a devil. That might give you the "consistency" in character you are looking for, but to me that would be boring. Wyll is fascinating to me. I love his character and his arch. I want to experience his story.

As for how Wyll's character is built. I think the main problem is that Pact of the Blade is not implemented yet and Wyll suffers for this. When I choose the Moderately Armored feat for Wyll at level 4, it makes him a much much less "squishy" character. He is a lot more tanky. Even up there with Laezel. However, I can't shake this feeling that I gimp him by keeping Charisma at 16, because his melee capabilities just fall short when compared to Eldritch Blast. However, if you look at the Pact of the Blade, in the PHB it states: "You can transform one magic weapon into your pact weapon by performing a special ritual over the course of one hour, which can be done during a short rest." Now depending on how or if Larian implements this, it could be very useful for Wyll. He can transform other magic weapons into a rapier? hmmm. Seems very useful. Also, the 5th level Invocation Thirsting Blade would give Wyll a second melee attack with his pact weapon, and later at level 12 the LifeDrinker Invocation would add his Charisma modifier to his pact weapon damage. It seems to me that these additions would improve Wyll as a swordsman big time. Also, if you have the Devil's Sight Invocation and utilize the Darkness spell, doesn't that give Wyll some kind of advantage with melee attacks? I think when the full release comes out and Pact of the Blade is added, Wyll will begin to shine.

To be fair. Having high CHA and knowing how to apply that charisma to get what you want are two different things. You can have a character who's naturally fun to be around and makes friends quickly, and that'd be a clear example of a character with high Charisma. But that same character might not know how to use that to their advantage or even think of it as a strength to be levied to get what they want.

I've certainly seen players with high CHA scores who make a mess out of social encounters because they didn't apply their charisma effectively. Intimidating someone they should've persuaded, using deception when there was nothing to gain from the lie, etc.

Wyll has high charisma in the sense that he comes off as good-natured and easy to get along with. He's not necessarily supposed to be manipulative.

Wyll is forgettable. High charisma should be the opposite of that, unless they're trying to be forgettable. But he's also trying really hard to be a big famous hero.

I can agree with that. Every time I get to the door fight and he jumps out of nowhere shouting "make way for the blade of frontier!", I am like "What? Who? Why?". I feel like this particular scene NEEDS a cinematic to show how important and heroic this character is. So far he is the only companion not introduced by either a cutscene or a dialogue.

Any actual hero would not have to announce themselves like Wyll does in the first fight. It should be one of the Tieflings doing the shouting if they actually believe in him. I guess that's where this character immediately starts going on the wrong track for me.

His first scene comes right after when he's training the kids, and quite obviously enjoys showing off to children. Like him less again.

If they are trying to portray him as a fake hero the writing in both cases is fine, but it doesn't make me want to have someone like that as a companion, at all.

Make way for the Gay Blade!

Honestly I think Wyll comes off really well in his scene with the children. To me he's genuinely trying to help them. Sure he enjoys showing off for them, but I think he just genuinely likes kids. He's trying to be encouraging and playful so they don't realize just how bad of a situation they're in. And he seems genuinely sad about their situation. I think that that scene is actually when we see Wyll at his most genuinely good and decent.


I think you're right. A cutscene would really be appreciated there. I think that touches on another bit of the writing fumble. We never get much chance to really FEEL Wyll's heroic reputation. We only really hear it from him, so it feels really hollow. So when we get to the reveal, that's actually undercut because we can't fully appreciate what he got in exchance and what's at risk.

On that note, I don't want his stories to just be exagerrated and mostly untrue. I think that undermines him too much. The exageration works if he on his own was the one exagerating them. But if it turns out that he sold his soul AND the stories that made him a hero weren't even true, that's just too pathetic. He has actual power thanks to the pact, he should have used that power to become the hero he always imagined he would be. Otherwise what's even the point?

I agree.

I think the scene is undermined for repeat players by the fact we know that Wyll is actually rubbish with a blade, so it’s a bit rich for him to be schooling anyone else, but that’s the fault of his build not the characterisation.