Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Goblin Player Character

This is another point of consideration as far as how the lore treats goblins. We literally have the archdruid of the Grove tell us that he does not want to completely wipe out the goblin camp and that we should try to take out the leadership, as they are the real problem stirring the tribe to the extent they've reached. He only fights all the goblins because his bear-fury cannot be fully tempered.

So right off the bat the druids don't consider the goblins something to be exterminated on sight. I have a hard time seeing Zevlor wanting to kill all the goblins too, seeing as his people took a goblin prisoner and Arka was being talked down by her companion before we show up. The tieflings just want to get to Baldur's Gate. They don't care how you make it possible.

This overwhelming goblin bloodlust just doesn't seem to exist within the narrative. We're not killing the goblins because they are goblins. We're told repeatedly that we're killing them because they are hostile and need to be dealt with.

Heck, if you go to the Forgotten Realms wiki you can find this paragraph:


The fact goblins are a playable race on the tabletop, which uses Forgotten Realms as a default setting for the most part, should be a clear indicator that goblins can be heroes within Forgotten Realms, which in turn means there's no lore reason to completely prohibit them from being playable. Certainly, they aren't less reviled than the frickin' Drow and Githyanki we can already play.

I think their reluctance to take on the whole camp is supposed to be pragmatic, not conscientious.

Druids aren't supposed to be 'good', nor do they like big moves in the ecosystem, so wanting to exterminate the gobbos or not doesn't say much. And the Trial of Thorns is a result of the Shadow Druids foreseeing an invasion from the Absolutes forces

If there's an evil race in the Monster Manual, there is a 75% chance there's a backdoor blurb there just to legitimize someone's monster pc at the table. You get inured to it after a while.

No worries . I can try to explain further, but I’ll pop it in spoiler tags as it’s off topic …

Sure i can ... and sure i do ...
But thats not the point here is it?

This topic is about being a Goblin ... not reacting to a Goblin.
And i for one would certainly welcome *full* Goblin experience ...

When i play Goblin/Drow/Duergar/Githyanki/*insert evil race here* ... i want the world to recognize me as an *insert evil race here* ... i want people to be missthrusting, i want them to be opensly agresive, refuse to talk to me, refuse to trade with me, i want options to show them that im different, i want to EARN their trust ... not having it automaticly, as other, common races have.

Just go and try create an Elf and a Drow ... pick exactly the same dialogue options and tell me, if you felt like the experience was anyhow different just bcs that NPC said "i normaly dont trust your kind, but i gues i make an exception" before started completely regular dialogue. :-/
Its simply not good enough for me.

The best part is that there wouldnt be too much changes needed in many situations (cant say all, i didnt hink so hard about it, but many for sure) ... just take some examples:

Arabella mother ...
Would (in my opinion ofc) never thrust faith of her only child to a Drow ... so she would refuse to tell you anything ... what would change?
NOTHING! You come to Kagha and the child is still there ... you can save her, and then her parents would apologize for being so short sighted.
Doesnt that feel better than when she come beging for help for known torturers, kidnapers, slavers, and in general quite cruel assholes?

Or burning inn ...
I totally love the fact that when you get there as a Drow, that one Flaming Fist wants to attack you ...
But you just say "hey im not with them" and everything is fine ... seconds later group of Flaming Fist asks you for help with doors ...
Nope from me. They should either ask your companions instead ... that would be great!
Something like: "Hey you, Drow lover, come here and help us clear the mess your friends cousins caused!"
Or they should refuse to talk to you at all, bcs they are too busy to deal with another one.
Again, nothing changes ... councilor and that blonde dude are still up there trapped ... you can still break doors, or find another way in ... and if you do, again, one extra line (either Floric would scold captain for not seeking help from you, or captain would apology herself) would make things feel better to me.

Right now, being evil race dont have that desired impact ...
You are easily welcomed everywhere, and that makes me sad panda bcs i dont really feel like a Drow in this game ... i just feel like an Elf with dark skin tone.

Exactly.

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Thats kinda different time, isnt it? :P

So ... you would be just standing there, wondering if you should or should not attack them until whoooooooole fight would be over ... and only then you would potentialy react, if they would turn out hostile aswell?

Congratulations, your quick decisions just killed Aradin and his whole group.

Exactly!

The point is that this game could really use ACTUALY hostile (not attack on sight, but really really REALLY unfriendly) responces to PC presence!
And not just to make Goblins playtrough more acurate, even for races and characters we allready have!

Unless we are talking about yet another situation ... its not lone goblin ... its another goblin.

Also ... if you really think that just bcs you see only one goblins there is no other around ... you wouldnt survive long.

How can you tell wich group s/he belongs to? :P
Goblins are attacking your camp ... there is a goblin.

That is exactly the problem im trying to describe here, this game sees too much into who is friendly and who is not.
Hells, you can even decapitate Aradin and his whole group yourself and Zevlor will still welcome you as a hero who helped them.

Is the city of Baldur's Gate even accepting goblins? Let alone murdering those on sight like any (mostly) hostile monsters?

I agree to that. Playing an evil race should really have a bigger impact.

If we would play one the cinematic after the fight should look like this:

Aradin and company enter the Grove (if they survived :P) and the gate slams shut. Our party is standing in front of the gate and the tieflings point their arrows at the party.

Then a conversation starts like: "If you did not help us we would have assumed you were with the goblins. Why did you help us and what brings you here"

depending on what race we play that could be a little different.

As goblin: "You are lucky we did not shoot you!"

As Gith that should be really difficult since we know that the scout who was with Zorru was brutally killed by Githyanki.

I also would welcome an option when we are not even let in and have to go look somewhere else. Would be a better start to the Evil path OR to gaining enough trust to be let in. That could be achived by rescuing that Gnome in the cave behind the Door where nettie tries to kill us.
Or by actually rescuing Halsin or anything in between.

People hating me for being a Goblin is part of the reason I want to play one, it's half the fun.

A lone goblin on the road is reason to think there's an ambush ahead, raining arrows on travellers. It's a trick as old as time. Depending on who you play, they would have sufficient reason to be wary. Though, you wouldn't want to just shoot the goblin and alert its allies, either.

I have to say I feel less bad for killing something sapient and evil, then something merely sentient and evil. Every wild "monster" into whose territory we barged? That's regrettable. I hate killing the owlbear. It makes me feel terrible every time despite nesting so close to the road.

The goblins... I know every single survivor is likely to flee to a different outpost of the absolute. I don't believe for a second that killing the leaders will reform the rest. "Just taking orders...", my ass. The Druids are neutral to good and will not exterminate something just to kill it, even if its nature is "evil".

An evil or neutral Tav, however? One not aligned with the absolute? I just can't believe they buy that. At best, the wild and homeless goblins will only exterminate one village to use it as their new base. Perhaps, one where they can control the road and rob merchants, like before. This is what these particular "reformed" goblins look like... as opposed to joining an army for an evil god.

I aknowledge they may need to do this to survive. I can't say that puts me in a generous mood. It's less that they need killing than that I wouldn't feel bad about stopping their spree of murder and plundering. They're not real. Exp is exp.

I'd feel different about a group of goblins minding their own business. Like I feel different about the mindflayer in the underdark. However, it doesn't seem so far like those type of goblins exist in Bg3. Any goblins we personally meet are likely to be pawns of the absolute.

I don’t kill the owlbear. You can still get the cub later at the goblin camp.😊

It's not about the cub, it's that it drops a spear part. Mostly, I go out of my way to not do the same thing every time. In this instance, I have not found it enjoyable. There's "hehehe (evil laugher)" ....and then there's feeling like scum.

In my playthroughs where I killed it, it didn't land a single hit. It's weakened and hurt. It's easy to climb up and get advantage on your ranged attacks. It's a slaughter.

@UnknownEvil

Exactly.
Even tho i believe they could let us in, that gate from inside is still place good enough for ambush ... Zevlor would simply need to talk with us from a distance, while his archers would be positioning around.

Then, depending on our dialogue choice we would either get small (but conciderable) rep. bonus to all Tiefling vendors in town (aka discount ... wich is certainly nice) ... or not ... or we would even get rep. penalisation (aka they would dislike us, everything would cost more, we get less, and dismissive dialogues are unlocked).

See? This goblin gets it. :3

I have the character in question all planned out, He's Dour, Cynical, and a Devout Paladin of.....I haven't decided the Deity yet, but his whole shtick is he's a good person disillusioned with his own kind as he sees their tendencies as Self-Destructive and wants no part of it, and upon saving a Cleric he finds a path. Unfortunately being a 'Goes into Goblin Slayer Abridged Voice' FILTHY GAAAAAAAAAWBLIN 'Exits Voice' everyone immediately assumes the worst of him and it's worn him down (Hence the Dour and Cynical part.) but at the end of the day people treating him poorly doesn't stop him from doing the right thing, even if it means the people he tries to help try to kill him afterwards.

So everyone hating him and/or Mistrusting him for being a Goblin is core to this character.

Also being a Paladin devoted to a Deity, but given how Paladins been added in the game so far I might have to do some retooling of the Character.

😢

So you're telling me you'd divert your forces to attack the group that is attacking your enemy on sight without confirming their intentions are hostile, PURELY because one of them is a goblin?

That's... Not the most tactically sound decision a commander can make. You probably just got all your troops killed attacking a group you didn't necessarily need to fight while actively protecting the group you KNOW wants you dead.

I'd pull back a bit and keep engaging the goblins I KNOW want to kill me, then question the group that just came to my aid after the fighting is done. If they turn around and attack me I absolutely fight back with no hesitation.


You can be on your guard without killing people indiscriminately. Besides, I play mostly rangers and druids. My passive perception is great.


The same way I can differentiate between who is fighting alongside me and who isn't in Grymforge I suppose. I guess the game could stop telling players who is and isn't an ally during fights for the sake of realism, but I imagine most players wouldn't especially enjoy accidentally killing important NPCs in big fights when things get chaotic and you can't quite remember the names of the NPCs you met 5 seconds ago.

The one completionist play-through I did, I climbed up above it to attack and it jumped up and absolutely mauled my party! Two characters down.

For most my play throughs I can't justify attacking the owlbear. My wizard thought it too tangential. My paladin balked on moral grounds. Even my pragmatic fighter couldn't justify risk/reward. BG3 is swimming in magic items and has abundant optional fights, can pick and choose.

A goblin's reception would depend a lot on how they're presented and to whom. I guess we're talking Flaming fist mercs and city dwellers, and it's hard to say because it comes down to the individual level. A merc might as easily be hostile as want to keep the peace, then there's orders.

I'd say that the reception would be better than frontier homesteads that have suffered raids. BG's high level of security might make goblins more a curiosity than a threat. However, in this timeline Elturel suffered greatly and a ton of refugees have made their way to Baldur's Gate. If the Tieflings' suffering is anything to go by, goblins will not be wholly safe in the outer city where refugees are forced to live.

Back to how they're presented. If they're part of a group and appear to be more or less equals, they're going to stand out but be extended some benefit of the doubt. In some areas of the city like the wizard areas or that Gond museum, they might be considered even mundane. I'm sure I've read of wizards with goblin (or more strange) helpers.

As it is, the whole party in BG3 might get a very hostile reception due to the city's situation, and being goblin or not is moot.

So I did my research to find anything that supported the claim that Goblins would be welcome in major cities and found nothing.

However, it also wasn't explicitly stated that they would be attacked on site. I even looked at the Baldur's Gate demographics. Nothing indicated any population of Goblins.




However, Goblins, especially females, do leave Goblin society behind and start new lives closer to human lands or elsewhere - at least I found some support for that anyway.

I also recall various campaigns that involved PC controlled Goblins, but generally these were not in major high pop locales.

The Cold Road by Zee Bashew comes to mind, where it is stated that the Frost Goblins used to have good relations with the local village (Horseshoe Village) and one Frost Goblin becomes a member of the party - but not without some 'misunderstandings'.



So I would say this is very much down to the DM of your campaign, some good dice rolls, and context. I would def be interested in seeing what playing a goblin is like, but you have to expect a lot of hostility.

First ...
Lets agree we will actualy read what the other say, bcs if we dont... there is really no reason to pretend this is a dialogue, we can aswell each imagine that conversation in our head and be done with it, ok? :-/

First of all, what im saying is that you are "a Tiefling" ... you have no forces to divert, you have one action in your turn and one arrow you can shoot, thats all you have.
My question was how would you use it.

Second ...
There was no time to confrim their intentions ...
As i said: They JUST, and i repeat once again to be sure, JUST appeared ...
No action were made just yet ...

And nobody who have at least a hint of self-preservation ... will (in my honest opinon) wait for another non-friendly looking character on freaking battlefield to state their intentions. xD

And finaly third ...
Party i described ... maybe i repeat it ... is:
A Githyanki ... ugly alien being, you may (or may not, w/e) heared Zoru talking about as it kills his friend(s? ... not really sure if there was multiple of them) ...
A Elf ... if we would presume you have really high perception ... its an oddly pale elf, with bloody-red eyes, fangs, and bite-marks on his neck ...
A Half-Elf ... that is wielding armor full of Shar symbols ...
AND another Goblin ... since, as mentioned previously, all your character see in roleplay (and this is roleplay perspective question) is how do you look ... so you dont really know if its same tribe, different tribe that dont really likes them, if they are in open war, if they are looking for alies, or whatever else ... its JUST A GOBLIN ... another freaking Goblin in situation where lots of freaking Goblins is attacking your freaking camp.

So ... no, certainly not "PURELY because one of them is a Goblin". xD
More like bcs litteraly none of them looks like someone i want to have anywhere near me.

Now ...
When (as i hope) situation described by me was explained enough lets look at yours:
Isnt it?

We are talking about world where even smallest child know that shits like Fireball exists ... and that even single Fireball can easily massacre half batalion with ease.
Now ... even that small child know well enough that casters, usualy stay out of main battleground, bcs they are fragile ...
That small child also know that there are healers, or people who are using power-incerasing magic, who aswell often stand in back hidden behind their meele troopers ...
And finaly ... the same child is since his young age taught that Goblins are treaterous bastards, who dont hesitate to slit each other throat if that suits their needs.

So ...
Lets say you are not "a Tiefling" but "Zevlor" ... and you are actually comanding your troops (also something he dont really do during that defense) ...

You notice group of not really friendly looking individuals appearing on the hill at battlefield ...
Their position gives them advantage (not mechanical one) ... if they decide to interfere, it would be a lot easier for them to kill your ground team, you are trying to save ...
They are in range for your archers tho ...

What would seem more tactical to you?

A) Wait what will they do ... aka bother with lowly goblins and hope those clearly more dangerous figures will be friendly.
B) Pre-emptively attack most dangerous target.

I know what i would pick. :P
Even tho, i agree it would be best if Zevlor could somehow yell at us to state our Aeligance.

See this is exactly the problem this game have ...
You are taking Aeligances under concideration ...

I know we can see wich NPC is green, wich is yellow and wich is red ... but that dont exist in roleplay (and should not exist in this game either).
This is just using of metaknowledge.
And i refuse to accept any argument coming from that, bcs situations should be resolved immersively by NPCs ... therefore they cannot know what "they didnt necessarily need to fight" ...

We have saying in czech: When battle is over, everyone is a general.

Cute ...
So you just transformed into Aradin now? O_o
Okey ... i guess ... there is little reason to talk about his perspective tho, bcs he have only 2h mace and can attack only those who are on Meele range ... but fine, have it your way:

How do you know wich goblin on that hill wants to kill you? :P
Feel free to replay the scene if you wish, or watch soem youtube video ... there is plenty of them.

Or you can just take what i tell you now:
Presuming our PC is a Goblin ... there are 3 of them on that hill! :P

See? Metaknowledge again ...
All you see is that someone came ... there is no garance of aid, people dont have banner "friendly target" over their heads.

You just cant get out of the game thinking can you?

This is even funnier, bcs that is also something game even refuses to do ...
You can totally come to Aradin and attack him directly ... and he would still throw a potion at you next round. xD

Never said you cant ...
Nor i ever said i kill everyone "indiscriminately" ...

Its just that as it seems our description of being "on guard" differs.

Maybe ...
Even the most perceptive hero sometimes fail ... especialy in BG-3 where nat 1 means failing. :P

There is important difference ...

We are talking here about NPC perspective ...
NPCs in Grymforge made a deal with you, therefore they know EXACTLY who is in your party (unless you purposefully switch someone before that fight just to mess with logic) and therefore who is their aly.

So ... nope, different situation = false example, sory. :-/

This is interesting proposition ...
I would say that if game would do that, it would also require adding some "hey same team idiot" bark ... or mid-fight dialogue (wich would be really weird in this cinemtic style Larian like so much) where your aeligance would be questioned ...

Anyway if you manage to forget name, looking and position of NPC you were talking to 5 sec ago ... you deserve to loose it. :-/

Demographics: Other (3%) is more than enough for our roving adventuring party or mercenary band Gobbo. He doesn't have to live indelicately in Baldur's Gate because, like Drizzt, he travels the surrounding area and lives with us more on the road and in the wilderness between quests. And even if he is a Baldurian, he certainly finds shelter at relevant factions (Zhentarim, The Guild, to name two examples).