Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Time to STOP

From my perspective, if a game doesn't have dialog and choices to be made that affect the story, then it's not a RPG . Back in my day we had a name for games like that, hack n slash. If you're playing a character role in a turn based game and making choices about who is a friend or an enemy or if you're going kill the NPC to get that loot, or let them live.... That's RPG. If it's the same but RTwP, or run n gun... It's still RPG.

But if the whole premise of the game is to kill literally everything then move on to the next thing to kill without any story... That's most certainly not RPG.

Just my humble opinion from a guy who was around when Asteroids was an awesome AAA game 😎

Hmm... as another older (let's say "mature") RPG player myself, this doesn't make sense to me. As long as you assume the role of a character in the game and have input in guiding that character's development, it's an RPG in the pure sense. Whether it's a deep - or in one's opinion "good" - RPG is another matter, of course. Defining an RPG solely on the existence of a more-than-paper-thin story or on enemy kill counts would automatically disqualify all the old Wizardry and M&M games as RPGs, for example.

Still, I understand some people seem to have developed different ideas on this over recent years; it is what it is. (Props for the Asteroids nostalgia, though!)

Yes but your youtube are OLD before Elden ring patch 1,08, elden ring patch 1,07, elden ring patch 1,06, Patch 1.05, Patch 1.04, Patch 1.03 etc.

First of all I have not played any Sekiro or Dark Souls or Elden Ring games myself. From what I have heard you might be correct about the first early one Sekiro. From the standpoint Dark Souls was more harder perhaps in the beginning, but with patches they have made Elden Ring harder so I would say today Elden Ring is not easier then Dark Souls. If you disagree you can see the first video I posted it was named "Elden Ring is disappointing".

Elden Ring is now more hard then your OLD youtube was done.

People seem to have decided that closed rpgs are somehow not rpgs, despite them actually being the more common form of rpg. Any game that has you assume control of a character that has a name, a role in the narrative of the game, either pre-made or not, and contains some form of character development (leveling), is an rpg.

A closed rpg is one where you basically have no choices, your character is predetermined and the story is predetermined, you are along for the ride, but not in control. Most of the Final Fantasy games are all closed rpgs.

An open rpg gives you choices, you create your own character within the role, and/or are given choices that have an effect on the story. This is your Elder Scrolls and most Dragon Age games.

If you're now thinking that this sounds like basically any game can be called an rpg, yes, you're correct, rpg is the most massive genre of games for a reason, and it's why we have a multitude of sub-genres to differentiate them, or they are referred to by genres that describe gameplay, instead of character development. Hack and slash is a genre of gameplay that began with tabletop games. Diablo is a hack and slash game, it's also an rpg. I think technically it's defined as an action rpg roguelite, but the last Diablo game game I played was II, so I haven't exactly kept up with development of the series.

Behold, a rpg!

I can't actually tell if you're trying to make a joke or not because I have literally never played any Spyro games.

I am still playing Elden Ring. You seem to be under impression that there were some sweeping difficulty changes. I don't think so, at least not ones I would would notice. Sekiro is considered the hardest, as it is the most narrow title. As Niara eloquently wrote, ER can be as easy or as hard as one wishes to make it.


I have never encountered open/closed RPG categorisation. Final Fantasy are jRPG, and yes, traditionally they are linear story driven adventrure with vertical progressions.

I am not a fan of "closed RPG" definition you use, as it could be used to describe a wide range of titles, and as such isn't particuarly helpful. Almost any game has some kind of vertical progression nowadays, and some games will have choices, or branching paths but I don't think that makes them RPGs. As I see it it is not enough for a game to have elements of an RPG, but for them to be a main focus of the game. For example, Deus Ex has shooting mechanic, but I wouldn't call it a first person shooter because that's not the game's focus. Or having driving, doesn't make you a driving game.

Recently a rather reknown RPG studio released Pentiment - a game with a lot of choices, skill checks and customisable character and they very reasonably called it "narrative adventure" - because that is the focus of the game, and all the other elements serve that core.

I don't think an RPG HAS to have fully customisable character - Disco Elysium and Planescape torment come to mind - as long as game's focus still is to allow players to define their character and roleplay and, well in those cases, him.

Big open world action adventures with RPG elements aren't new evolution of RPG game - they are just a mass product using every popular hook to reel in as big of an audience as possible. At this point they are neither action or adventure or RPG games. I like Yahtzee term "Jiminy Cockthroat" - at least when I hear it, I know what it is. Speaking of Dragon Age, I am slogging through Inquisition, and I would absolutely categorise it as Jiminy Cockthroat. A really, really crappy one, but it is hardly an RPG at this point - they couldn't even bother to come up with a story this time around. And people complained that Deadfire had short "story", bah. Witcher3 definitely borrows from Jiminy Cockthroat designs, but thankfully is for the most part a well written narrative action game.

If posting the widely accepted definition of an rpg isn't helpful, then I don't know what to say to that. That's like telling me that it's not helpful to classify my books into fiction and non-fiction because the categories are too broad. Yes, that's why we have sub-genres.

There's some overlap between the rpg and adventure genres. Telltale games like the Walking Dead or Wolf Among Us are adventure games, not rpgs. Maybe it's confusing because everyone seems to have a different idea of what constitutes role playing over adventure.

There you go your build have been nerfed after launch. That is not all some boss monster have been little more hard but do not know exactly which ones much it was said in the youtube video "Elden Ring is disappointing".
It is good for you that it ER is not to hard for you and you like it very much. That is how I feel about Solasta Cataclysm hardest challenge level.
Perhaps your right that is has not been that so much harder that is true.

Another problem personally that I think with ER is that the story unless you have not played other games like Darks Souls 1 and 2 can be a bit problem to understand for many new players that have never played Dark Souls games. Example of hard to understand? I come as EX WOW MMO player (a very long time ago played in like 3+ years near release date) where there are very clear what to do quests and you did generally have nothing unclear what you should do are details except perhaps some good tactics in beginning first time in some Dungeons and Raids but you could fast learn.

Malenia mentions here "As I wait for his return". Who is he??? If I would be new player to this game I would feel it unclear story,

I am not saying ER is like EVE Online MMO very hard learning curve, but the story is not the most clear told really. There are some youtubers that have explained the story very deeply in detail for ER world, but most people do not have the patience to look through them.

ER is very good game and graphically very good, but perhaps not my personal cup of tea in taste since I am more theme park then Open World player or WOW MMO with crystal clear quests and question markers over quest givers.
That said Unreal 5 engine wins also ER graphics, but that is not fair since really there are not any fantasy game released yet that I know of with Unreal 5 graphics. As for World design of course with Unreal 5 engine you can do different worlds and that is more subjective taste what player consider best world design.

I am not sure if it is widely accepted. I genuinely tried googling open and closer RPG, as it seems to me like an interesting categorisation, but I found nothing. So I did my best why I felt this categorisation was off. A genre discription becomes useless, if almost everything can be put under that genre.

It's a play on Diogenes' "Behold, a Man!" My point is that your definition of an rpg is so broad as to be practically meaningless, if "basically any game can be called an rpg." In that spyro game, you
- assume control of Spyro
- have a role in the narrative of the game
- level up Spyro, giving him different/more powerful elemental breath weapons
By your definition then, it's a rpg. But by practically any genre categorization I'd use or generally see, it's not. (If you haven't played Spyro, it's similar to Crash Bandicoot: solidly in the adventure/platforming genre.)

Although, to be fair, I'm not entirely sure what you meant by "character...that has a role in the narrative of the game." If you meant that the character can make choices to affect the outcome of the game/etc, then okay that's better. If you just meant that the game tells a story, in which the character you play in has a large role...again, that's super broad.

Edit: Also, I'm making fun of general attempts to define rpgs/etc. We've been through this a few times on this forum now, and it turns out it's kind of hard to exactly do without missing things that definitely are rpgs or the opposite. Something something Supreme Court's "I'll know it when I see it."

Elden Ring's story is completely unrelated and in a independent world space (probably) from any other From game. You do not need not have played them to understand its story.


If you had been paying attention, even a *Little* bit, you would know this. The game has been positively *bombarding* you with this information leading up to this point in the game - It's actually very difficult to fathom that a person could play to this point in the game and not know to whom she is referring, unless they have the information processing capacity of a three-year old. If that's you, then you really need to start paying attention.

From what I gathered he has not played the game. He has watched streamers play it.


Look, one of my degrees is in 18th century poetry. I LOVED the writing in Elden Ring. It was everything great writing should be. It was also highly prosaic. It was designed to challenge players to pay attention and sift interpretations, to be comfortable with ambiguity, or answers that are more complex than they seem. Once the real story unfolds you are left with a sense of mixed wonder and horror at not just the challenge of the game, but the mental journey you had to take, and the layers of story you had to unpeel to get to the truth of things...and even then.

This is a game that really spoke to people - especially to those that had eyes to see and could appreciate craftmanship.

But you know, not for everyone, and that's fine. There are plenty of other games for those folks to play, but maybe some people will continue to think about ER and it will open some in internal doors for them.

Having said that, if English isn't your first language and it isn't localized correctly for your native language then this game's meanings are going to elude you and that ISNT your fault.

One of the reasons games are not written like this is because they don't translate well to an international audience unless you have a solid writer that can interpret. I wholly believe the Japanese and English versions of ER were written correctly to convey subtle meanings. We have GRRM after all and Japanese by nature is very prosaic. Outside of that I can't speak to how meaning was conveyed.

After Elden Ring has been nominated for Best Narrative, I have been thinking if it deserved it. But than I thought to my fondest memories of God of War (didn't play Ragnarock so can't compare it) and how highly I regarded how mechanically useful Atreus was. When he becomes rebelius in the story, he stops responding to your commands. Brillaint - story telling through mechanics.

Elden Ring does that all the time. How an enemy fights is a story in itself - about his past, his connections to factions and other characters. What characters drop tells us more about their history and the world. Item descriptions paint a picture of the world and its past. Playing though the area is integral to understanding that place.

I won't argue that exact plot details can be difficult to decypher and there is a lot of interpreting going on. But it is not even the core of the story - Elden Ring has vague writing, because it doesn't need to do exposition dumps. There is so much story in enemy, item and combat that what is said is just icing on top, helping to connect the individual dots. It is not a game one can watch and get most of it. The game doesn't need to form connection through lengthy cutscene or elaborate writing, because it does so through the act of playing the game.

One core element is DS Games or now Elden Ring is that the "Great Story" is over. Its like you play a Character who wander around Mordor after Saurons defeat.

Yes I have not play ER. However here:

He say that Elden Ring's story is not good hehee. He also say that Elden Ring's story is less good then Dark Souls 1 and 2.

Well and I have liked more games that are done in USA or Europe and not from Asia that is so. However I might try:

Throne of Liberty aka Lineage 3 MMO. Unreal 5 engine and the only fantasy MMO game (that interest me) I expect full release in 2023. Unknown what will cost etc. slightly interested. but like calling it Lineage 3 instead. Release date: During 2023.
Voluntary PvP but my issues is with no classes and then PvE zerg farming bosses in outdoor dungeons and raids not balanced. Well and guess more or less buy to win elements could be included. Anyway beautiful game no doubt with Unreal 5 engine. In huge fights Lineage 3 reduce automatically graphics from what I have heard.

Throne of Liberty aka Lineage 3 MMO is from Asia and I have never said that all Asia game are bad. I did try Asia MMO Final Fantasy XIV and Asia MMO Genshin Impact? Why did I play Genshin Impact MMO? Because I would know why so many girls and women think Genshin Impact MMO is best? Whatever did not like it.

I generally like more Western games, but lets see if I will like Throne of Liberty aka Lineage 3 MMO and that is from Asia. At least it should have sexy women though not so much as Witcher 3 with full nudity. Witcher 4 will use Unreal 5 (100% sure it will use Unreal 5) and have full nudity I believe. Cyberpunk 2077 did also have FULL nudity and they the makers of Witcher games and Cyberpunk 2077 have decided that they future games at least for now will use the excellent super Unreal 5 engine! That decision was told actually fairly recently in December 2022 to public.

Cyberpunk 2077 is not example of good system requirements game I think and had lots of bugs. However Unreal 5 engine is very powerful it can make same kind of effects as Ray Tracing with really much less system requirements. According to my analyze currently Unreal 5 engine is the best engine that exist generally of course how game makers design their worlds with that engine can vary and system requirements can still vary depending on how many enemies seen and how big battles etc.

I also know that Lineage 3 (that has voluntary PvP) will automatically reduce graphics in Unreal 5 engine in huge battles. While the FULL PVP world MMO Ashes of Creation tries to do "Mission Impossible" have Unreal 5 graphics and not reduce graphics and have record breaking 500 players vs 500 players battles and among that a Huge PvE Dragon in that area.
Point being certainly do not expect all Unreal 5 games to be same kind of games.
NOTE: In Ashes of Creation MMO ALPHA 1 were huge PvP battles but not the scope of maximum planned 500 vs 500 players. ALPHA 2 will likely be released in 2023. That said it has not yet been showed they can do 500 vs 500 player battles remains to be seen if they can do the "Mission Impossible" in Ashes of Creation MMO.

Well and now Unreal 5 engine has got a big powerful update:

I mean, that guy has 210k subs and he doesn't like ER. He is entitled to his opinion but you should probably play a game personally before passing judgement. Immediacy of experience is essential.

Jeanette Winterson once wrote "If you want to keep your teeth, make your own sandwiches" -(Oranges are Not the Only Fruit)

Something to take a breathe, and then think about...

I think he still likes it. He tends to do lengthy critiques and this one in particular seems to focus on specific aspects that he sees it as lesser than it's precedessors. It is not a review and should not be treated as such. It's been a while since I watched it (in rearlier post I mistaken him with another minor youtuber focusing on lengthy critiques). I do think Elden Ring is more sloppy than Dark Souls1 - but that's comparing it to a game that would easily make it into my top 10 of all times.

Elden Ring is Dark Souls but much much bigger and it comes with all the good and all the bad that comes from being that ambitious. It is incredibly impressive but also more repetitive, more sloppy, less "to the point" than its precedessors. It is what it is. Some with love it for it, some won't. Elden Ring is very, very flawed and would probably be better of if it was scaled down by quite a bit, but it is still very, very incredible.

Personally, I just hope thats FromSoftware won't get stuck trying to top Elden Ring. It is a kind of big release and big success that can topple a company.

Wait, wait... so...let me understand this. You are criticising the story-telling of a game that you have literally never played, based on watching a single isolated late-game cutscene and not understanding who it is referring to, when you have zero context and have not experienced any part of anything leading up to this point? Just to be clear, that's what you're doing?

Then your outsourcing your opinion on this media that you have never engaged with to a video made by someone else, and acting like that says anything meaningful at all? It doesn't - I'm quite capable of forming my own opinions and discussing them - are you? So far, it comes across as though you are unwilling or incapable of engaging your own mind, forming your own opinions or having your own thoughts without first being told what those thoughts should be by an online personality.

For the record: Unreal five may be neat, but I personally welcome the death of the unreal dominance and the rediversification of games and gaming engines; when every game comes out relying on the same engine underneath, they intrinsically develop a sort of saminess that, in the most recent generation of games was getting stifling - I'm sick of seeing games piggybacking on the unreal engine rather than developing their own, and the various games I've seen recently that have shifted to develop their own engines for their own games have been a breath of fresh air by comparison.

Yes Elden Ring is flawed.
The Quest NPC and the lack of Pacing is confusiong in the first try. Dark Souls was the exact same but the world size makes it harder.
On the other side is a second or third run is more fun because you have alot of options in the open world.

DS1 and 3 have the the better Core Lore with the flames and magic schools.
Elden Ring has to much side factions. 3-4 different schools of magic and faith are a bit much. Golden Order two Fingers Yellow Flame etc. .. confusing.
But DS2 with Majula has a special place for me.

Elden Ring needs a caravan or some friendly hiden places, everything an enemy is a bit boring.
The combat is nice but the other RPG Aspects like NPC interaction need a little more love.