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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't care if it's DOS or D&D or something entirely different. Shoving is simply, objectively, far too prevalent and powerful for BG3 tactical combat to be credible. Someone just can't get enough of the joke. Swen himself seemed to have a great time thunderwaving his co-op buddy over the edge. It seems like memes over gameplay any day at Larian.

I get how players not looking for a tactical challenge would find OP stuff fun. But some of us do play for that challenge and I don't want it to be a lazy afterthought of giving enemies double HP and shove immunity.

Finally, BG3 has so much verticality everywhere the natural instinct would be to nerf Shove from 5e. Instead, they greatly overpowered it. (And where you have no verticality, you have explosives lying around, or some gimmick that can entirely dominate a fight. Always something that makes character abilities secondary.)
+1. I think a lot of Larian might be seeing this from the perspective of having fun with friends in multiplayer, which is great, but it also needs to make sense.
You make a good point. There is a lot of verticality in this game, and we should be rewarded for strategizing around it. However, the ease of use of shove and it's extraordinary strength tends to cheapen what should be an earned strategic move.


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Originally Posted by 1varangian
I don't care if it's DOS or D&D or something entirely different. Shoving is simply, objectively, far too prevalent and powerful for BG3 tactical combat to be credible. Someone just can't get enough of the joke. Swen himself seemed to have a great time thunderwaving his co-op buddy over the edge. It seems like memes over gameplay any day at Larian.

I get how players not looking for a tactical challenge would find OP stuff fun. But some of us do play for that challenge and I don't want it to be a lazy afterthought of giving enemies double HP and shove immunity.

Finally, BG3 has so much verticality everywhere the natural instinct would be to nerf Shove from 5e. Instead, they greatly overpowered it. (And where you have no verticality, you have explosives lying around, or some gimmick that can entirely dominate a fight. Always something that makes character abilities secondary.)

Well said!

Last edited by UnknownEvil; 30/01/23 05:46 PM.
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Is there a shove poll? Are there ardent defenders of current shove?


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This is far from the only thread about shove. Also i cannot remember anyone ever beein pro-shove.

Open up a poll, im all for it. does not matter if there are others :P

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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
Is there a shove poll? Are there ardent defenders of current shove?
I am not sure a poll is needed, I don't know anyone who likes it as it is currently implemented. There are plenty of people ambivalent about it, thought.

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I'm a MEGA +1 on the shove thing, it should be an Action because according to the 5th ed RAW it is a Contested Attack and when successful the target is either Prone or pushed back 5'.

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Shoving a Creature

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.

Player’s Handbook, pg. 195-6

Last edited by FuriousGreg; 30/01/23 08:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by FuriousGreg
I'm a MEGA +1 on the shove thing, it should be an Action because according to the 5th ed RAW it is a Contested Attack and when successful the target is either Prone or pushed back 5'.

Quote
Shoving a Creature

Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you.

Player’s Handbook, pg. 195-6

Put that into the poll thread too please. laugh

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Perhaps we could make change of weapons and drawing weapons each an action, for balance. Combat is much too fast and not enough TT-boring like.

Or not. Perhaps it should stay as it is. If you don't like shove, don't use it. As the AI indeed uses shove (I felt it several times) it may be a problem for some TT-people, but then just stay away from edges. Shove is already nerfed a lot and frequently fails. I shoved 4 times with my current Barbarian till lvl 4 and 1 time it threw a small goblin down (to the spiders), 1 time it made the target prone and 2 times it failed.

Same as barrelmancy. I did not use a barrel a single time in my last playthroughs, the only exploding stuff is when the dump little dealer blows herself up by some actions.

Making jump an action would be ... a bad think for melee based chars, don't do it, Larian.

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Originally Posted by geala
Perhaps we could make change of weapons and drawing weapons each an action, for balance. Combat is much too fast and not enough TT-boring like.

Or not. Perhaps it should stay as it is. If you don't like shove, don't use it. As the AI indeed uses shove (I felt it several times) it may be a problem for some TT-people, but then just stay away from edges. Shove is already nerfed a lot and frequently fails. I shoved 4 times with my current Barbarian till lvl 4 and 1 time it threw a small goblin down (to the spiders), 1 time it made the target prone and 2 times it failed.

Same as barrelmancy. I did not use a barrel a single time in my last playthroughs, the only exploding stuff is when the dump little dealer blows herself up by some actions.

Making jump an action would be ... a bad think for melee based chars, don't do it, Larian.

TT-People?

Sorry to say that, but maybe you should think about how to adress people on the internet. This is not about whining. It is about the consistency of a ruleset. And to a certain degree, logic. Larian took the D&D rules and changed Shove from beeing an action to beein a bonus action. (I wont even talk about shove distance).

With that decision alone melee (or High STR) Chars get a buff because they can not only use an attack action but in addition, shove an enemy. This changes the balance of battles significantly.

Most people here try to better the game for everyone. Especially if it is about mechanics not working as intended or changes made by larian (for laughs?) that have a huge impact.

Shove and jump are such things because they can completely alter how combat turns out.

Jump as of now makes high STR/low move chars actually able to cover more distance/round as intented sometimes even more than a low STR/high move character.

It was also mentioned that this does devaluate other skills/spells. Sometimes even makes them entirely useless.

(hopefully better) chess example: Yout King can now move 3 squares in all directions. That would change the whole game, or not?

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Originally Posted by geala
Or not. Perhaps it should stay as it is. If you don't like shove, don't use it.

We all want to use it. That's the whole point of posting about it.

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Originally Posted by geala
As the AI indeed uses shove (I felt it several times) it may be a problem for some TT-people

Not a TT player.
I'm just a turn based combat fan for a long time and I'm complaining about shove since day 1 wink

Last edited by Maximuuus; 31/01/23 04:55 PM.

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