Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Paladin class NEEDS Deity Choice!

No, they haven't. The section I quoted in the other thread, is, specifically, the section that talks about alignment and its very real presence and impact in the realms, still absolutely there and absolutely real, post second sundering. It's right there, in the handbook, in clear print. they removed *specific alignment requirements* from classes and races for player characters - that's not the same thing as removing alignment from 5e, which is what you've been claiming. Alignment is not gone from the realms, at all.


These two statements are not synonyms. They mean different things. One of them is provisionally true if it is taken to mean that the requirements for specific alignments was removed from player character class and race choices... the other is entirely false... as the quoted passage from the PHB linked in the other thread spells out.


Yes, it is:


Choosing your alignment is absolutely a part of character creation as laid out in the 5e handbook. It is 100% still something that the handbook tells you to do when creating a character.


Yes, that's what we're saying - and it still is in 5e... as the passages quoted from the 5e PHB, about how it is a very tangible and real thing in the realms, illustrate.


No-one in this thread has directed any kind of ad hominem towards you; pointing out where your statements are incorrect is not an attack on your person or your right to feel the way you feel about how things should be.

I'm fine with paladins choosing deities or not.

Their powers are divine, that's a given. It's not clear to me if gods are the spring of divinity or draw first from the spring.

The fact that in FR there's an over deity, Ao, and that gods come and go, suggest that gods are more custodians of portfolios.

Now back to paladins. Following say Tyr and swearing an oath of devotion to what Tyr embodies. That ticks both boxes. Though in a world with music magic, oath powers makes sense in itself. Then we have the no-deity paladin who just swears an oath of devotion to behaviour aligned to Tyr? Well, the divine power flows through them just the same.

In the background to all this, polytheism in the norm in FR. I'd imagine normal households maintain several little relics, idols and rituals to various gods. Choosing one single deity is the exception, and is the mark of a cleric.

****

Likewise, I'm okay with 2000gp to restore fallen status.

First up, if you don't rob traders or sell to traders you know you'll later kill, that 2k is a big chunk of your wealth. The noble background calls that a dragon hoard and awards inspiration. In a non-thieving playthrough I think I gathered 6k total throughout.

Secondly the Oathbreaker ties that amount to a dead or alive bounty that was placed on him. What price is a life? A soul? Withers asked that question. Oathbreaker says it's a dragon hoard. I'm sure this theme will come up again and again. That some players say it's too much or too little plays around with this unresolved question.

If people are referring to the errata regarding alignment in the PHB, it wasn't removed wholesale, and anyone who told you that is either mistaken, or wanted you to get outraged. They removed the alignment from the racial traits only.

The PHB errata on alignment is as follows:


This errata is from 2021, not others have been released yet, so it is current.

Yes, I agree it’s a nice to have rather than essential to be able to specify a deity for every character (which is why I said what I said, rather than what Ragnarok “fixed” my post to ).

That said, while deities are essential to clerics, they can also be fundamental to (some) paladins and monks and not having the character creation option and dialogue to reflect this would, I think, lead to a much poorer roleplaying experience for these classes. And the incremental work shouldn’t be huge as likely they could share much of the deity-specific dialogue of clerics of the same god.

Deities can also be important to druids and rangers, though with those it’s easier to get away with generic nature-loving stuff, so while I’d still like to see optional deities with a scattering of suitable dialogue for them, it’s lower priority for me.

For everyone else, I guess it wouldn’t be too tricky to just let us pick a deity in character creation for flavour, but that then might lead to disappointment if it’s not reflected in the game, and I agree reflecting it in the game without undermining the specific divine connections of some classes could fairly quickly become onerous. Personally, I’m okay with picking (at least one level of) one of the classes that has such a divine connection if I particularly want to roleplay a character to whom devotion to a deity is important.

EDIT: Also, with respect to the full list of deities offered, I’m torn. I can see an argument for keeping it to a shorter list that have some specific content/dialogue options in the context of the plot. But I still feel that I’d prefer the list to be more comprehensive, to give us the flexibility to play whatever character we like, even if that means there are many gods who give little or nothing in the way of additional cleric/paladin/whatever deity-specific options and we just get generic class stuff. Personally, though, I’d probably choose to roleplay divine casters with connections to deities who play a significant role in the story, but without some indication of which they might be as part of character creation admittedly that would involve some meta gaming.

Here you go, have some humble pie.

SCAG Page 39. Torm: "... Considering these Tenets, it should be no surprise that most Human PALADINS have Torm as their patron"

SCAG page 40. Tyr. ".. Such knights, as well as judges and priests, Clerics, and PALADINS who worship Tyr..."

SCAG Paladins page 131. "...When such a warrior also has great devotion to a particular deity, that god can reward the faithful with a measure of divine power, making that person a Paladin"..

Oh and Hhere is the REAL kicker, rdy? SCAG page 132 below virtues: "MOST Paladins in the forgotten realms, like clerics, are devoted to a particular deity. The most common paladin deities.... ... Torm and Tyr are both popular deities for paladins..."

SCAG Page 132: Order of Samular "When tyr fell silent the Paladins in his service lost their powers. But the knights of Samular stayed true to Tyr. Their patience was recently rewarded when, upon Tyrs return to the world, many of their dwindling number were invested with the powers of a paladin.

I havent even touched on other books so far other than Sword coast adventurers guide (which is basically 50% a lore book, 50% a rulebook). Curious that you havent read that one, you seemed so damn sure of yourself. I think I have made my point, or do you still beg to differ???"!??!?

But offcourse you are welcome to have your own personal opinion on the matter, how you play in your homegame is your business. I am just explaining to you how the LORE works............

Here are some more if your still in denial, but honestly if you still are, I cant help you...

Paladins use Holy symbols as a Spell Focus. They are referred to as holy warriors in several of the books.

What about all the temples dotted around the place, or more to the point knightly orders or paladin orders dedicated to gods? Order of Samular being one. They are referred to as worshiping Tyr and a few others. Same goes for Order of the Gauntlet, where members are referred to as usually worshiping Torm, Helm or Tyr if memory serves. (Hoard of the Dragon queen source among others).

Need more? SCAG page 20. Religious institutions. "...Indeed, the power invested in Clerics and OTHER divine spellcasters by the gods..."

Just thought of something else. What if you choose the Acolyte Background, are you still saying paladins who have that background dont worship a deity?

Err, I’m sure Niara can and will speak for herself but you might want to rethink your post as your quotes don’t in any way disprove anything she has said and if anything support her argument over what initially appeared to be yours. She has never denied that some, or even most, paladins follow one or more deities, only clarified that not all do and that there is an in-universe explanation of this.

If, however, you are not in fact claiming that every paladin must have a deity then I don’t think there’s any substantive point of difference to be argued about.

Most Paladins, not some

SCAG page 132 below virtues: "MOST Paladins in the forgotten realms, like clerics, are devoted to a particular deity."

As for Powers. This sentence below refers to devoted warriors (ideals and oaths).
SCAG Paladins page 131. "...When such a warrior also has great devotion to a particular deity, that god can reward the faithful with a measure of divine power, making that person a Paladin"..

No I dont think I will.
If someone wants to talk down to me and try to belittle my view/playstyle as somehow inferior, homebrew, or Most importantly NON Canon, by using the back of their hand. When they are actually talking out of their ass, then they deserve a barb or two in return.

Sure. I only added the qualification to indicate “not all”, but happy to accept “most” would be a better word than “some” in this context.

Ohhhkay. I think your “barbs” critical miss and you’ve misunderstood what Niara has been saying, but it’s your choice.

People do many things which are not canon. And that doesn't make it inferior or lesser. It just makes it not line up with WoTC's current corporate vision. Saying a particular viewpoint goes against the most recent established setting is not the same thing as belittling. It is just pointing out that it is not a binding rule for official properties.
Both paladins and druids use divine magic, yet no one is demanding druids must also have gods? The reason seems to be, as I mentioned in my previous post on this topic, and as FreeTheSlaves mentions as well, Druids and Paladins are capable of drawing on Divine Magic not through a particular patron, but through particular portfolios allotted to those patrons. Druids would draw on the portfolios of relevant nature deities, while Paladins would draw on divine magic from the portfolios of relevant oath-aligned deities.
The "most" claim you are making is not the point you think it is. Logically speaking, "most" would imply a large proportion of paladins, but not all, so ∃ (there exists). If your source said ALL, then we could use the universal quantifier ∀ (such that ALL). If it says "most," then it does not imply that paladins which do not follow gods cannot exist. In fact, it implies that there likely ARE some paladins which do not follow gods.

Ofc not, if anything Id say the contrary. I have plenty of Homebrew in my campaign (Im a DM but also a player). I mix canon/Lore with my own. The thing is I stated something was official lore/canon, (which it still is), he matter of factly dismissed that claim based on what he "knew" was official lore. Hence why I got triggered, because he was so obviously wrong.

If most Paladins follow/worship a deity, (at least some, maybe many being given powers/being uplifted to Paladin by that deity). Then its quite reasonable to say that just about all the paladins who follow a deity are given their powers from that deity. They are tied to an oath, if they break that oath, then those powers can be taken away. Who takes them away? The deity they follow naturally. Ofc, I will concede that the deity they worship might not be the only one feeding the powers. It might be the triad forexample as a whole (Pally worships 1 or all of them, and/but is given powers from all 3).

It does make sense that those paladins which do swear oaths to particular deities would lose a significant portion of their power if they broke their faith to that deity.
I see a few efficient solutions:
See if all Cleric of X tag statements can simply be transferred to Paladin and still make sense. Have the paladin just be a holy warrior equivalent of cleric, or have no deity.
OR
See if we can slightly alter all "Cleric of X" tag statements to fit EVERYONE as "Follower of X," where anyone can choose to follow a God or be an atheist and get some power out of it. Then, if Druids or Paladins disrespect their god, they lose a special ability, but can still have power through nature and oaths as representing drawing on a group of portfolios without a specific god.

I’m afraid Niara wasn’t wrong and your quotes don’t prove she was. The only claim you seemed to make that either she, or I, objected to was that every paladin needs to have a deity and that only paladins with deities are supported by the lore, and nothing else made sense. If this was a misunderstanding and you are not actually saying this, and accept that it is both within the rules and consistent with lore for some paladins (however rare) to not follow a god, then again there’s no substantive point of disagreement here. We would all agree that paladins ought to be able to specify a deity but should not be forced to, so that we can satisfyingly roleplay “normal” paladins but also give players who want to roleplay valid (if more uncommon) paladins who have different relationships to their divine power the option to do so.

As a reminder, this is how the debate started …

Zerrubabel, To me chosen oath and oath to a deity are connected. But I was actually referring to Oath of Devotion, ancients etc.

My point was if a paladin who worships a deity breaks that Oath, its probably that deity who takes those powers away. It Gets clunky when I try and explain it cos for my Paladins (player or dm) they actually swear 2/3 oaths. One of conviction/principle/goal (ancients etc) one to their god, and a general one to strive to uphold The Paladin virtues (scag).

Anyway back to BG3. Ive been playing past 2 days with a mod that basically copies Cleric deity list in character creation. Dialogue options are same as Cleric except it says Paladin «insert deity here». Just Even that implemented would be ok honestly. Would require near zero extra work as well. Heck a modder made it less than 2 days after patch 9 I believe. He/she did it perfectly and file size is miniscule. Its just copy paste from one class to another. Problem fixed (sort of).

I have also seen mods out there which gives that choice to all The classes.

As for Paladins in BG3 vanilla, other than deity, they need to explain The oaths more clearly in game. I.e what you can and cannot do. Right now you become an oathbreaker for attacking and killing a goblin torturer.

Honestly if Paladins who don't follow Deities are an exception to the rule rather than the rule, not having the option feels kinda bizarre.

Then the solution is to borrow the Cleric's tags and have the following options:
"Paladin of X" Choose a deity, the characteristics of that oath makes you sponsored by that deity (not all deities are available for all oaths), and if you break the oath you break your connection to the deity. I'm not sure if you have to be "sworn" to the deity though. I think you are sworn to the terms of the oath, and the deity grants you power. More like a Divine Warlock than a cleric. You abide by the terms of the contract, not the whims of the deity.

"None," You follow your oath and your oath alone. Through this, you draw on the Divine Magic through many Divine Realms which overlap with the nature of your oath. Should you break your oath, this tenuous connection to the many realms would be shattered. (No Paladin of X tag included).

Yeah... look, the paladin should have the option to have a deity, or not have a deity. It makes sense that if "most" paladins have deities, we should have the option. However, since WoTC owns the property and defines canon and makes it clear that paladins don't absolutely need to have deities, they should also have the option NOT to have deities. We are playing by the rules of the lore, which is ultimately set by WoTC, past AND present, so...
Most paladins have deities (past lore); however,
Paladins without deities can easily exist (present lore); therefore...
Paladins with and without deities should be available options.

In all fairness though, you couldn't even choose a deity in BG1+2 IIRC for either cleric OR paladin? So at least having a deity available for cleric is already a major improvement.

Most Paladins have deities still (check out SCAG page 131-132). Thats present lore.

Paladins who dont serve a specific deity still Get their power from deities btw, its Divine magic.

Also ppl who want to argue Rules as written and not as intended, heres one more.

Paladins have starting equipment: Holy Symbol
Paladins are granted spellcasting and other Divine powers at lvl 2.
Paladins swear an oath at lvl 3.

I'm not all that certain what you are arguing here. Maybe you can help clear it up with a yes or no answer to the following:
Do you think ALL paladins HAVE to be devoted to a specific deity NO MATTER WHAT and there CANNOT exist a Paladin which does not express devotion to a specific, named deity? (Meaning the option not to follow a deity should NOT exist?)