Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Shove Poll

I'm modding BG3 for 4 weeks now and the first things I did was changing shove.
It is not complicated at all, even for non experts.

You have it for download somewhere. Nexus?

No, not yet but you can try Lostsouls' mod combatactions : https://www.nexusmods.com/baldursgate3/mods/204
It changes a few more things but if you just want to change shove to an action : I guess I could upload mine on nexus OR explain you how to do. It is really easy.

Explain as I like learning. You can pm me if that’s possible on these forums. That one changes too much.

In recent patch Larian made special weapon attack and throw work as multiattack (there are some kinks to iron out, but it almost works), so there is already a way to tag different skill cost as part of multiattack. There are mods that made shove a full action, so it shouldn't be a problem to tag shove as attackaction/multiattack. Probably more effort would take to create a properly coloured icon for the skill .[/quote]

I cannot say anything to that. I have not seen their code. Apart from that, i only program industrial applications in C and C#. So i am not even sure if i would recognize is IF i could see the code

It is all just assumptions. If something get criticized that much, a developer would consider acting. At least in some way. Larian has done it before and even if they love the shove so much i cannot see them totally ignore the playerbase. But even that has happened before. I am just trying to look at it in a different way.

So if we rule technical problems out, that only leaves stubbornness

Alright 5 Shove Defenders, explain yourselves.

You don't shove twice in one attack action :P

… according to your interpretation, but I’ve already provided links in this thread that show others interpret the rule in the same way as Madscientist.

Obviously, were Larian to decide to make it possible to replace an attack with a shove then they’d need to make their own call on this, with the advantage that they could ask WotC what they actually intend the rule to be!

For me, it’s not that I want multiple attacks per turn to be swapped for shoves. But if shove can properly be contested by athletics or acrobatics and its distance is nerfed (which I do think is necessary), I think it’s only going to be in very specific situations that either NPCs or my party are going to find it reasonable to try to shove multiple times per turn if they have Extra Attacks. And if something happens very rarely, but is very effective when it does, I think that can be great fun. Limiting shove to once per action, replacing just one attack if the character has more than one, has less opportunity for situational fun, but also less opportunity for situational frustration. So … I dunno :shrug:

And my rule of thumb when I don’t have strong preferences one way or another is that the tie break should be whatever is closer to RAW, or RAI if RAW isn’t clear. But in this case, I’m afraid I’ve not seen anything here yet that I think definitively proves what the RAI is.

EDIT Per RAW I don’t think, though, you could use additional actions granted by Haste to shove, as it limits attacks to weapon attacks, and even though Shove is defined as a special attack, I think it’s also been clarified that it doesn’t use your weapon. Though as I’m sure we’re all aware, BG3 doesn’t put limits on what you can do with the extra action from Haste in other cases.

Oh its not even really a question.

I just feel that in some cases (but i admit it may be due to my bad english) that WotC simply dont want to give deffinitve answers, that in some cases there simply is no "official way" to do things, bcs rules can be read in multiple ways and they all are corect.
It feels a little like someone was wondering about it, and then decided to leave it vague as it is, bcs everyone will automatickly pick the way they wants to read it ... so there is no point in making things extra precise anyway.

You know ... like:
Forum: How should we read it.
WotC: As it is written.
Forum: But it can be read in two different ways!
WotC: Yup.
Forum: So, wich one of them is corect?
WotC: Both of them are corect.
Forum: But they exclude each other.
WotC: Yeah, we know.
Forum: So?
WotC: Both of them are corect, you pick.

Ah! I understand.

I’m still pretty new to 5e but even I recognise that tendency you mention, and that WotC seem to want to say the minimum possible. I guess that it is fair to want to preserve flexibility and the ability of DMs to make the calls that they feel best at their tables, even if the fact they are not forthcoming on some topics is frustrating to folk like me who would prefer them to be unambiguous.

If this is genuinely a case like this, and Jeremy Crawford’s semi-explanatory tweet to someone who asked this question saying “If you take the Attack action and have multiple attacks, you can replace any of them with a grapple/shove” is the last word on the matter, then I guess Larian would have to make the DM call, IF they swapped Shove from a BA at all.

If WotC genuinely didn’t want to further clarify their intentions, then I’d not care which call Larian made, though I do think that ANY option that swapped Shove to an action from a bonus action for everyone who didn’t have a specific feat (or perhaps a magic item) would be an improvement. Though not enough of an improvement without also reducing distance and making sure it could be contested by Athletics OR Acrobatics. I mention the latter only because I think I saw someone here mention once that Acrobatics was always used, though that’s not something I’ve looked into myself and hope isn’t true.

Come to think of it, it's kind of fascinating in a twisted way that people who play a game whose basic component is their own imagination ... demand strict rules.

Seems little counterintuitive, doesnt it?

I think not, when we consider the purpose of those rules to maintain a fun balance and keep things fair.

If imagination were the only factor, it would be less like a game, and more like telling a story. And, in my case, probably not a very good one! What I enjoy is the ability to use my imagination within the constraints of - and also prompted by - the rules.

Plus, given it’s a computer game, unless we want BG3 to randomly pick between interpretations or be programmed to pick different interpretations at different times, which would be definite choices in themselves, it’s going to have to pick one. So we still need a definitive rule in the end, even if it’s one Larian has to make a call on as the DM rather than one WotC demand.

My question for people more familiar with source material: Did Larian make it easier to succeed with shove? It feels like shove works more often than it doesn't, which is not my experience with Solasta.

If shove doesn't lead into instand death, outside some extreme cases, like very poor positioning, I don't think multi-use of it would be too detrimental. Even if enemies would attempt to use 3-5 shoves to kick you off the cliff, that is still 3-5 attacks full of damage they didn't roll against you. If push to prone were implemented, that one could push instead of attacking hoping for better rolls down the line. Solasta has "unlimited" shove - does anyone consider it a problem?

Howver, push needs to be a tactical alternative, not a dominant strategy. With push how it is now, I would even lean toward making shove consume attack action, period - you either get your multiattack, or you roll for an instant kill.

I’m not a person more familiar with the source materials, but not sure if you spotted my edit to my post above adding that I think I have seen someone here mention in one thread that Acrobatics was always used to contest Shove in BG3, instead of Athletics or Acrobatics as per RAW. It’s not something I’ve looked into myself though, so may not be true even if I’m not misremembering someone else’s post.

I'd be cool if rolling for shove were harder. One or more of the following to be implemented:

-Make Shove an Attack Action
-Make Shove require a (more difficult) roll
-Reduce Shove Distance

My phrasing was unclear. I meant that is how Shove should work - it should cost the exact same resource as a regular attack.

Given that Larian has properly coded regular attacks to only use one of the X attacks a character might have, and as @Wormerine says Special Weapon Attacks ALSO work this way, this proves (or at least strongly indicates) that Shove can be coded properly: preventing you from using normal actions, but still allowing additional attacks up to the # of attacks a character has.

I think we're on similar pages in how we want shove to work. Imo, the Shove Distance is the most offensive thing currently. If I had to choose between making it an attack action or reducing the distance, I'd want the latter.

Also, the rolls for Shove should appear on the combat log!!! That would make it so much easier to determine exactly what is being rolled against what. As of last time I played BG3, and from what I can recall others posting more recently, they weren't.

Distance seems to be more complicated to change than the use cost. In exemple if you set the shove distance to 1 meter : you won't ever push someone because it's never "far enough" from the edges. And that is available for very straight lines edges.
I tried a bit but it is not an easy parameter to manage imo.

I'll have to try a bit more.
If someone is interrested to test our suggestions : I can provide simple mods.

This is even more fascinating ...
You know this isnt the first time i said this sentence, and every single time ... i would say ... someone start talking about no rules at all. O_o

As if there is only two options ... strict rules, or no rules ... i mean, the game we are talking about have sometimes pretty loose rules and they still exist ... so ... middle ground.

The current 90-10 vote aside, can we just take a moment to think just how stupid combat simply looks when everyone is constantly pushing each other around.

I've never seen a moronic push fest like this in any game that has fantasy combat in it. Archers are charging down from their vantage points into melee just to yeet someone into lava. I see players pushing threatened enemy archers away from their reach because it's like an automation now. Attack -> Shove. Push, push, push, just for the sake of pushing sometimes because BA. Even Mage Hand was changed from a cool utility spell into yet another extra Shove.

If the 300 kick is a cool Shove, BG3 is the opposite of that doing it constantly, everywhere, exaggerated.