Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Weapons Attack MOD - I need your help / opinion

Hey guys,

As some of you know I'm working on a mod to rework weapons attack.
The main idea is to make weapons attack feel more like "common actions you can do with weapons".

- Cooldown per turn and not per rest
- Some attacks are common to all weapons
- Icons will be reworked
- Weapons attacks are reorganized (which weapon for which attacks - number of attack / weapons)
- All weapons attack are rebalanced (alternative to normal attacks rather than powerfull attack to use between every short rests)

Balance is what I'm foccussed on for now...
I'm not able to do everything I'd like to... In exemple I can add a flat malus to damage roll but not to attack roll.

That said, I'd really like to have your opinion on this. Does it feel too powerfull ? too weak ?
Good alternative too normal attacks ? Good synergies with other characters ?

If you also have ideas/suggestions/comments on effects that are or that wouldbe interresting according to you please feel free to tell.



1) ALL MELEE WEAPONS - no proficiencies required

1) CHARGE ATTACK (based on rush attack)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use costs = action + bonus action + movement
- effects = damage (1D4 + modifier) + chance to prone the target


2) ALL MELEE WEAPONS - no proficiencies required

2) OPENING ATTACK (based on opening attack)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action
- effects = chance to distract the target (success = next attack made with advantage)


3) ALL MARTIAL WEAPONS - Proficiency required

3.1) LACERATE (Slashing weapons)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = damage (weapon damage -2) + chance to inflict bleeding for 1 turn (-2HP / turn) + target has disadvantage on Constitution ST for 1 turn

3.2) CONCUSSIVE SMASH (Bludgeoning weapons)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = damage (weapon damage -2) + chance to block the target's bonus action and reaction for 1 turn + target has disadvantage on Wisdom ST for 1 turn

3.3) PIERCING STRIKE (Piercing weapons)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = damage (weapon damage -2) + chance to reduce the target's AC by 1 for 1 turn + target has disadvantage on dext ST for 1 turn



4) ALL WEAPONS - Proficiency required

4.1) CLEAVE (2H weapons)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = damage (weapon damage / 2) on 3 ennemies


4.2) CRIPPLING STRIKE (Handaxe, Battleaxe, War Pick)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action
- effect = damage (1D4 + modifier) + chance to reduce the ennemy movement to 0 for 1 turn

4.3) TOPPLE (Spear, Quarterstaff, Trident)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action
- effect = damage (1D4 + modifier) + chance to prone the target

4.4) POMMEL STRIKE (Sickle, Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action
- effect = damage (1D4 + modifier) + chance to block the ennemies bonus action and reaction

4.5) HEARTSTOPPER / WEAKENING STRIKE (still not sure) (Club, Greatclub, Mace, Morningstar, Warhammer)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action
- effect = damage (1D4 + modifier) + chance to disarm the ennemy


Still working on the range attacks.
All of them should be able to do a "focuss shot" that cost action + bonus action and deal +1D4, bows should have hamstring shot and crossbow should have some kind of piercing shot (see above). Have to define attacks for martial ranged weapons...

Whatever thanks for reading !

Amazing idea and thank you for your effort!

Here's my two cents, the changing I'm proposing will be highlighted in red.

I don't know how multi-attack has been implemented (haven't tried the new patch yet) but I think that a character able to perform more than one attack should be able to do more with its entire turn than any other character with just one attack. Otherwise, a tiny mage is able to match a fighter in a charge against an enemy. Another solution is to leave the cost on action+bonus action+ movement but to increase the damage based on the weapon.

Same reasoning as before. Since it is called "Opening Attack" I imagine should be followed by another one. A Fighter with more than one attack should be able to follow up on the first one (opening).


I don't have a problem with these attacks until the rogue (or characters that don't normally have multi-attack) gain proficiency in a martial weapon via a feat or by multiclassing. The corrections I suggested are only in place thinking about this situation.
Considering the amount of damage a character can dish out at higher levels, having a -2 penalty to the damage done is ok for the secondary effect of the strike, but the ability disadvantage is too powerful in my opinion.
For example, a medium tear rogue may do this trick every turn, still landing its sneak attack (which constitutes 90% of what they should do during a turn) and applying a severe debuff to the enemy saving throws without having any feat or spell. Especially the disadvantage on WIS saving throw may prove game-breaking. Said Rogue can land its sneak attack, reduce the target AC by one (which is good but not OP) and greatly increase the chance for the wizard to successfully cast "Hold Monster" or some equivalent spell that can effectively exclude the opponent for the encounter.
As said before, it is true though that the rogue has to gain proficiency in a martial weapon via feat or by multiclassing, but once that's done, you have a murdering machine on your hands.

I will edit my post later for the remaining attack but, I will say this:
In general, I would limit all these actions to once-per-encounter. It is true that their costs are high but still, their effects are comparable to the ones of combat manoeuvres, spells or other resource-based abilities. Making them so "spammable" will consequently make all said manoeuvres, spells and abilities weaker in comparison.

I understand your reasonning with extra attack. What you said is what I had in mind. If I'm not wrong nothing prevent you to use a weapon action as an extra attack so it should work as you described.

I checked a bit combat maneouvers but I didn't tried in game for a long time : I don't remember everything, fextralife may not be up to date and things may have changes in game.
That said If I'm correct all manoeuvers damages are increased by the superiority dice roll.
Weapons attack damages are reduced by 2 or cap to 1d4 while maneouvers damages are often (always?) increased by 1d8. Consideribg this : do you still think manoeuvers would be outshadowed by weapons attack ?
What spells or class-ressource based actions do you have in mind ?

About ST disadvantage they were not in my list at the beginning. I added them to allow more synergies between characters. I guess it could be less powerfuill with a flat malus to ST rather than an advantage ? (Let's say -1 or -2).
Not sure that's something I can do... I could decrease the DC but it's not the same.

Thanks a lot for your feedback !
Can't wait to read what else you have to say

I like balance discussions!

tl;dr: I think balancing Special Weapon Attacks so they're equivalent in power with normal weapon attacks is the best option, as it preserves their power over all levels. Otherwise, either they'll be too weak for level 5+ martials with Extra Attack or to strong for level 1-4 martials.

1) CHARGE ATTACK: seems a bit weak imo. Your entire turn for 1d4+mod damage, plus only a chance to prone the target? A normal weapon attack deals ~1d8+mod damage, so essentially you're also using your bonus action to deal 2 less damage and attempt a Shove Prone. Differently ordering things: you're using your action to Shove prone, and then a bonus action for (an attempt at) 1d4+mod damage. Which actually reads better on paper, as off-handing a weapon only deals ~1d6 damage...except that these things are conditional(?). If you miss the initial attack, I assume there's no attempt to Shove Prone?

70% chance to deal 1d4+mod damage, and a 50% chance to Shove Prone. I suppose it is technically balanced -- for level 1-4 characters only -- but I don't see myself ever using it, as I won't be able to follow up attacks (with Advantage) on my turn.

Might I suggest something more along the lines of: benefit = free attempt to shove prone, and cost = you're easier to hit until the start of your next turn

2) OPENING ATTACK: too weak. This is the Help action except not guaranteed. Or the Shove Prone action except the enemy doesn't stay prone and it costs a full action rather than an action-equivalent attack.
I'm not sure this attack is even necessary, but something like "chance to reduce enemy AC by 2 until the start of their next turn" is probably more appropriate.

In general, I dislike the "action + bonus action cost" system that you're using to balance attacks. It punishes classes that actually have bonus actions (rogues, rangers, some barbarians, clerics) while being ~free for classes without normal bonus actions [I assume we're playing in a mode without BA shove]. Imo, a better way is to balance Special Weapon Attacks against individual weapon attacks - action-equivalent cost. The downside should be a penalty to hit or damage, or leaving yourself open to attacks.

3.1) LACERATE (Slashing weapons): See above. Effectively, we trade 2 damage for the chance of 2 damage and disadv on Con STs. Disadvantage on Con STs is fairly strong; I might suggest a -2 penalty to Con STs instead. This attack could then only cost a single action-equivalent attack.

3.2.) CONCUSSIVE SMASH: Again, I'd suggest a lower ST penalty and removing the BA cost, especially since Wis ST spells are generally of the incapacitating variety.

3.3) PIERCING STRIKE: Basically the above. -2 penalty, no BA cost

Okay. Essentially we're dealing an extra 0.5*weapon damage in exchange for a BA, which seems fine? Again, except for the fact that this is a more/less meaningful cost for different classes, and that this won't scale well at higher levels.

Rec: Make it a penalty to-hit instead of adding a BA cost, and have it cost an attack-equivalent action. A -5 to-hit deals exactly the same total damage assuming a 75% chance to hit. Advantage/Disadvantage/base to-hit chances all affect the balance.

Fine, I think. Maybe a bit too strong, and should instead only halve enemy movement.

Fine, I think. Basically a Shove Prone attempt but with a bit extra damage. The "chance to shove prone" should be conditional upon the hit, otherwise it is strictly better than Shove Prone.

Fine. Maybe it should only affect enemy reactions?

Probably too powerful. I doubt that Larian has implemented code for enemies to retrieve and equip dropped weapons or swap to backup weapons, so this attack might make the enemy completely useless.

Recs:
- Weakening Strike could make it harder for the enemy to hit you and/or reduce their damage.
- Heartstopper could...force them to roll concentration checks at Disadvantage?? Affect their Dex ST and/or Str/Dex ability checks for a round?

I dont really like target limit for Cleave ...
It just feels weird to me, i would preffer it to be 90-180° cone that would damage everyone ... and i mean EVERYONE, friendly targets included.

In order to keep it ballanced, not really sure if that would feel DnD enough, but how about let subsequent targets to get lesser damage?
Like: weapon > weapon /2 > weapon /3 > 1+Str modifier to the rest.

Dear Santa Maximuuus,

This year I have been a NICE Tav. This year I've been kicking only two goblins' ass in Act 1 and ate a lot of vegetables in camp. And I also haven't slaughtered ANY squirrel, yeeet.

My Weapon Attack MOD wishes are:
1) I wish no special weapon exclusive attacks for any weapon. Because they are either op or needless. For example, the Cleave, a high-level character can already perform multiple basic attack actions in one single turn to finish off the enemies, meanwhile giving 1 Cleave per turn is almost like giving a baby version of flaming hand for Str melee users per turn. Note that the wizards could only have limited spell slots per rest. The challenge that a horde of goblins could ever provide is that if player don't have a good enough AOE dealer companion, such as a destruction wizard, then with limited action per turn, the player melee fighter won't be able to finish them off quickly. Got 2h weapon? There is a miss chance even fighting a lvl1 goblin, so the situation will be tricky and winning this fight will be satisfying. But if my 2h fighter could cleave per turn, then she can just slaughter most of the nearby melee goblins and get to the range goblins with little to none trouble in one single turn.

2) I wish the basic attack of 2 handed melee great weapons to cost one bonus action as well, so that the great weapon can actually been special and the great weapon feats could finally be critical for anyone who wish to wield such weapon.

Love!

Good luck with the mod.
You mention not being able to reduce attack roll? Is that what you mean? If so GWM reduces attack roll by 5.

I have a mod, homebrew features where you can take a feat to allow you to use some of the special wpn attacks once per turn

Oh I know you do ! That's why I was mostly sure to have a few answers

Is the help action (to distract an ennemy) guaranteed in DnD ? If yes, isn't that a bit too easy to have an advantage ?
The help action is exactly what I had in mind. I thought it was a good idea to add it as a weapon action considering that it is more or less something Larian did.

About the charge I don't know if the ST is done if you miss the attack roll. I tried with another mods (reworking magical arrows) but to be honnest I'd have to check.
If you have extra attack you can charge + attack or attack + charge but as you said : it is your entire turn from level 1 to 4. Have to think about it a bit more.

About the Saving Throw : yes I should be able to apply the target a flat malus on the next turn(s) rather than an advantage. I agree that it would be better balanced.

That said, I disagree about bonus actions being a punishment for some classes.
I know DnD a lot less than you do so I may be totally wrong about how "balance" everything is, but I like that Larian tried to add more possibilities to use the bonus action ("tried" because in my opinion they totally failed with shove, dip, hide, pommel strike and so on). I like that everyone have more choices to use bonus actions, especially classes that don't have some.
So I'm asking myself : Is the ranger class unbalanced / less appealing if he has to choose between hunters mark OR a weapon action ? I may not think about everything but I don't have the feeling that it punishes anyone, especially if weapons attacks are correctly balanced.

About 4.5 I will definitely go for weakening strike and add a flat malus to next attack roll.

Whatever I still have to think about all this but thanks A LOT for your opinion ! As usual it's very usefull and inspiring !



You should report your message to Larian cause I definitely won't ever be able to do something like that!



I have the feeling that cleave is not as powerfull as it looks to be. I'll have to check a bit deeper in game but the damages are divided by 2 so if you use a 2h sword on 3 ennemies (which probably won't happen every combats) it is 3.5 damage / target = total of 9 damages. 2D6 is 7.5 average damage BUT I have to admit that I don't know what happen with your modifier when you use cleave. If it is modifier * 3 then I have to agree : it would be too powerfull.

Basic attack as a bonus action ? You mean a normal attack for a bonus action rather than an action ?



That's what I meant yes. I haven't been able to get inspired by GWM yet because it's a feat and a passive.
If I'm correct passive are not applied by spells so I don't know what I should do to always apply a passive but only when I use a spell.
If I use a boost : it apply after I attacked so the next attack will be with the negative rollbonus but the weapon attack will be normal.

Someone suggested me on the discord to change the SpellRoll but I really don't know how.

Will check your mod, I guess it will help !
Thanks again

The Help action (per 5e rules) is guaranteed. It's not overpowered because it costs an action to use. In almost all cases, it's better to use your action to attack/cast a spell. 2 attacks can hit twice, but a single attack (at advantage) can only hit once. I've seen a player character use the Help action in combat maybe 5-10 times in the entirety of my D&D experience, mainly involving grapples against single enemies.

Adding more options isn't necessarily a bad thing; it is a common complaint that simpler classes like Fighter have nothing to do on their turns except move and attack. And true, you're not making the Ranger/Rogue worse by adding these options.

If you're going to continue balancing things via Bonus Action cost, I suppose my advice is: make sure to keep in mind general bonus action availability. Standard Fighters don't get many options for their bonus action, so if you make a Special Weapon Attack more powerful than a normal attack due to it having an additional BA cost, then a fighter will ~almost always use that ability because why not? (E.g, BA Shove)

Best of luck! I look forward to this mod!

You are right. Thanks a lot I'll keep that in mind.

I will first try to create a first version of the mod asap. I hope you'll still be arround here to discuss balance a little later

Hi
Just unpak the game and check out GWM.
It uses a toggle.
I've added in precision strike using the interrupt function (reactions) so there's a few options to make weapons different.

I think we DM via discord before. Feel to ask questions and share your ideas in the discord modding server!

Was hoping a basic attack with great weapon cost both one action and one bonus action.

Hey guys,

Here is another attempt to balance things.

Trying to only use weapon damage and weapon damages /2 because it scales a lot better in my opinion.
If some weapons attack always deal 1D4 + modifier it means that the damages will always be the same, no matter if you use a dagger +0 or a longsword +3.

I also tried to balance things arround normal attacks, keeping in mind what we could do with a normal attack action.
Some may look a bit too powerfull though (exemple : an additionnal bonus action to block an ennemy's bonus action + reaction + -2 on a ST is probably a bit OP isn't it ?).

It looks a lot better to me, clearer, cleaner, scales better,... but I'm not sure it is better balanced than it was
Any comments about this ?

1) CHARGE ATTACK (based on rush attack)
- use costs = action + bonus action + movement
- effects = Weapon damage + chance to prone the target + self next attack roll -2

2) OPENING ATTACK (based on opening attack)
- use cost = action
- effects = distract the target - next attack made with advantage

3.1) LACERATE (Slashing weapons)
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = weapon damage + chance to inflict bleeding (-2HP / turn) AND target has -2 on Constitution ST for 1 turn

3.2) CONCUSSIVE SMASH (Bludgeoning weapons)
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = weapon damage + chance to block the target's bonus action and reaction AND target has -2 on Wisdom ST for 1 turn

3.3) PIERCING STRIKE (Piercing weapons)
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = weapon damage + chance to reduce the target's AC by 1 AND target has -2 on dext ST for 1 turn

4.1) CLEAVE (2H weapons)
- use cost = action + bonus action
- effects = damage (weapon damage / 2) on 3 ennemies

4.2) CRIPPLING STRIKE (Handaxe, Battleaxe, War Pick)
- use cost = action
- effect = weapon damage /2 + chance to reduce the ennemy movement to 0 for 1 turn

4.3) TOPPLE (Spear, Quarterstaff, Trident)
- use cost = action
- effect = weapon damage /2 + chance to prone the target

4.4) POMMEL STRIKE (Sickle, Longsword, Rapier, Scimitar, Shortsword)
- cooldown = once per turn
- use cost = action
- effect = weapon damage /2 + chance to block the target's bonus action

4.5) WEAKENING STRIKE (Club, Greatclub, Mace, Morningstar, Warhammer)
- use cost = action
- effect = weapon damage /2 + chance to inflict -2 to the target's next attack roll

I like these new abilities more! I'll only list the ones I think need additional work, assuming that all the "+ chance to do X" effects only can happen on a successful hit(?):
Good, assuming that the enemy gets a save on each subsequent turn to remove the bleeding (or it only lasts a turn or 2).

There are a lot of effects here, probably making it too strong. If full weapon damage -> I'd suggest only blocking reactions.

You could probably even remove the hard limit on # of enemies. If there are somehow 4 enemies within 5 feet, lucky you!

Possibly too weak? Compare it to Topple, Crippling Strike, and Pommel Strike: -2 on enemy's next attack roll is weaker than the other effects.
A -3 is probably better.

I'll have to check but yes, I think the "chances of additionnal effects" are only possible if the attack roll is a sucess.

About bleeding yes I had in mind to make it last obly for 1 turn. The attack may apply a single status that inflict both 2 damage + -2 to constitution ST.

About concussive smash that's what I had in mind : only block bonus action OR reaction. If concussive smash block reaction then pommel strike will block bonus action. I'm not sure which one should block the reaction and which one should block the bonus action. Not sure it really matter.

About Cleave : I'll try to make the range wider. The 60° cone looks really ridiculous. And as Ragna suggested : It will damage ALL characters in the area, allies included. Will have to test a bit but I also thought about removing the target's limit.
I guess we're not going to have tons of ennemies packed arrou d our character and as you said if it happen : lucky you !

About Weakening I wasn't sure. My initial idea was to make all target attacks roll reduced by 2 for 1 turn (so if he has multiattack, all attacks are reduced by 2 rather than only the next one). Could probably make it a -3 !

Glad you like it better. I am a lot more satisfied to be honnest.
Your advices have been very valuable.

I'll be soon able to share a first version. If you are interrested to try let me know... that's really easy to instal (I also have a few others simple things already ready. Will soon restart a run to test everything).