Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Shove Poll

So many Team Lawful!😜

Well, Dark Messiah of Might & Magic comes to mind, but even there kick was tame by comparison. It's also First Person action game, so sending someone flying has quite different feel to it.

The middle ground was meant to be considered in both my first and final paragraphs . Apologies, I could have made that clearer. With PnP I guess more looseness is possible, as the DM can make a call, but I’m not a PnP player so don’t have any definite views about how frustrating it would be if a human DM didn’t apply rules consistently or wouldn’t explain to the players what the rules are.

Mind you, if you can explain how BG3 could implement loose rules then perhaps you can sell me on the idea! Right now, I can’t even imagine what that would look like.

Or do you just mean that we should be more comfortable with WotC leaving the rules open to interpretation and DMs making the call where there’s ambiguity?

Well you are corect that this cant really aply to computer game ... computers are exact machines and everything must be defined precisely in order to work ...
There is no "maybe" or "random" for computers, such concepts are way beyond their curent capabilities.

The only loosening we can find here, are situations when Larian read the source in their own way.
Or just changing it completely.

Yes, basicaly that.

I dont really want to wrong WotC ...
But i know that if i would be writing the rules, i wouldnt go too deep into it either ... for one, you only give amunition to people who demand to play their way ... and for two, even tho some people can manage to have such conversation polite as this topic shows, there is many of them that are quite toxic about it.

I have one stabile group, we play over discord (if that is of any significance), and even tho we sometimes had really bad player, luckily our DM is autoritative enough to defend his ground.
But from other games (mainly Bang!, if you know that, its card game) that i play on family/school/wow guild reunions ... i know that some people are able to argue (litteraly, he was talking about it even after the game was over) for hours repeating that single mention that supports their interpretation of rules, refusing to let go, and refusing to go on until everyone allows them to act the way they want. :-/
When that happened, i really wish Bang! to have some DM that would have option to just say "its going to be THIS WAY and we are done talking about it, if you dont like it, leave".

So, yeah ... i gues we should be more comfortable with not so strict rules in my opinion.
It allows us to read it in our own way and luckily enough, if there is any argument ... this game provides us person with strong enough autority to pick for us.

Isn't that what we are doing here?

Discussing the implementation of a rule that was changed by the "DM" to make him reconsider? And if Larian keeps it that way we can decide if it is so gamebreaking for us to stop playing or just live with it.

In the case of shove, the derivation from the 5e rules is pretty drastic and i guess that is the reason why it is discussed since day one.

Here i would say WotC should actually intervene (i would if something like this happened, since this is not a 5 man PnP session).

Even if you say it is an interpretation, we have a poll and a lot of posts. Most of the people agree that shove can not stay as is, even if the solutions vary. This beeing so one sided would make me think if it were my game. Those are my customers after all. Just beein stubborn because im the Dev is...well...
not good. To say it mildly.

What can i say ...
There is nothing wrong about discusion ... in my opinion at least ...
Problem is when people start to be toxic, imagime ... well, actualy you dont have to imagine it, just go read some 20pages+ topic.
Sooner or later (usualy sooner around here) people start atacking poster, rather than his opinion and THAT is the problem.
Sure, on forum its not that bad, bcs we have moderators that usualy can calm people down ... but what im talking about is people talking around table.

I can try to explain it by joke:
"I played monopoly with my family, nobody argued and everyone enjoyed it."
If you get what i mean.

Or just mod it.
Computer platform have its benefits after all.

If you ask me, people that start to get toxic or even insulting just ran out of useful things to add to a discussion. So i try to ignore that part and answer normally.

This forum is relativly mild i think . I would not have joined otherwise. Toxic or insulting ppl are often hard to talk to since a lot of them tend to ignore good arguments because they would have to stop their tantrum.

Regarding monopoly, yes i get it

I see this forum as a chance to improve the game for me. And with that also for others that share my opinions. I tend to get a lot of new insights and even change my opinion at times if someone else comes up with a good idea
or explanation.

I bought the game, have already over 500 hours of playtime and i will play it when it comes out. Even if things are not as i hoped.

for all else, i concur:

MODS

Im even thinking of startin to mod myself...coming from C / C# that might get interesting

Yes, I agree that in D&D players should accept the decisions of the DM as final, though I’m struggling to see what relevance this has to the debate at hand here, if indeed it’s meant to? We’re not here as awkward players arguing with a DM in the course of the game, but as players providing our feedback before the game starts on what interpretation of the rules we think would be most fulfilling and fun at our virtual table, to inform the DM as they make their choice of how to either interpret or homebrew the rules.

Okay, Larian almost certainly have already decided by now what the full game is going to do, even if they’ve not commented on it, so what we say of preferences now probably won’t make a difference to them. I’m sure they’re already well aware that many players don’t like how Shove currently works and have taken this into consideration, even if they’ve ultimately decided not to change it!

But as you say, mods are also possible to tweak the DM rules if we want, so even if Larian’s mind is fixed I personally still find this kind of debate useful in helping me understand what kinds of mods I might like to see created or use. Or even make, though I’ve not actually tried modding a game myself since NWN so I’d probably better leave it to the experts!

Nope ... "we" are not ... but rules we are debating about were written with those people in mind (or at least it seems that way to me).

Agreed, 100% ... since aproximately half (maybe even full) year ago.

I dont really want to speak for anyone else ...
But i believe i have seen Maximuuus talking somewhere around here about trying to mod Shove to full action, and he mentioned (unless i remember incorectly) that it was his first moding experience and he couldnt even believe how easy it was.

So i feel very optimistic about mods.

Well...
The fact that i cannot even find guides how to start modding makes me think i should stick to my microcontrollers.

I found a bit about how to set up your modding environment and that BG3 uses the Divinity Engine 4 (which is not released? :O).

All in all...i have not idea how to start^^

You can't find guides yet because modding is not officially supported so things have changed often, apparently (don't know, I started after patch9...).

First things to do is to extract the game's .pak files with this tool : https://github.com/Norbyte/lslib

This tool also allow you to extract existing mod's .pak files.
This os very usefull to understand what you're reading.

Thanks, thats somehow as far as i came.

After that you just open those with an editor and rewrite? What code do they use? Lua? C? C#?

Notepad is enough (notepad++ is better).
If you want to change shove you just have to copy shared/public/shared/stats/generated/data/Spell_target.txt and paste it in steam/steamapps/common/Baldur's Gate 3/data/public/shared/stats/generated/data.
That's the easiest way to modify simple things for yourself.

If you write "ActionPoint:1" rather than "BonusActionPoint:1" in data "Usecosts" under new entry "Target_Shove" you have made it an action (I guess for the rogue too, haven't checked).
If you delete data "SpellSucess" "blah blah blah" and write data "SpellSuccess" "Force(2)" distance will always be 2 meters.

I don't know at all if it's Lua, C, C#, C++ or anything else.

will try it out, thx. im using visual studio code anyway, that should be able to handle it.

To make shove like 5e just making it an action is still not correct. Have you tried attacking one time and then doing a shove or the other way around after making it an action? (only works on lvl characters with extra attack)

Shove has been modded closer to 5e, including it counting as part of an extra attack.
The modding discord is a very helpful place to learn about installing and making mods.

Yes, you can shove and attack but not attack and shove.

That's something Lostsoul have done in his combatactions mod but it doesn't work in mine. I don't have enough skills to add/edit scripts. I tried to practice with Lostsoul's script once but I just broke the game 😅



This is so true ! The modding community is awesome.

Thanks for the info.

I tried a bit...downloading and installing the apps and modding too but i get too many errors, conversion fails and whatnot...

Guess i have to start over sometime^^

using this "overpowered" shove bonus action never saved shadowheart from the level 7 cambions in the helm. in most situations and on a featureless flat surface, it won't change much. also, not having anything to do with your bonus action is always a bummer...
on the other hand, I quite like the idea of rewarding players for taking advantage of the terrain... and it also put them at risk since enemies can do it to them too. (but, I also created a "create lava" spell based on create water so... I might be biased here)

now, my actual problem is with the throw action. my mage have 30 strength and even with the high ground, throwing a goblin on his friend has really poor range... I don't know what happened between 3.5 and 5 but things got ridiculously weak -_-'

You can take advantage of the terrain also whith Shove being an action, it's just not that unbalanced compared to other mechanics of the game.

Being able to throw other characters is a bad joke, be it from DnD or BG3. It does not make sense, as the weight involved is too high even for the strongest muscles. So it being as weak as possible would be very nice. I'm playing mostly as Barbarian, and I avoid to use the stupid ability.

If it is a "magical strength", things may be different, f.e. I have no problems with Eldritch Blast to be able to shove the biggest of creatures. From what source is the strength of your mage?

the source of my mage's strength ? uh.... fun ?tl:dr, just mods
I tend to like trying silly stuff in games and I'm always delighted when they let me try.
now, in 5e, 30 is the hard cap even gods cannot go past and, for someone who was used to 3.5 where dragons had 47 in strength, it feels really weak...
I can certainly understand all rational arguments but consider this : *numbers go brrrr*

in all seriousness, it's mainly a scaling thing, if a goliath or an orc throws a goblin, it's rather plausible at 15 str, throw rune knight and/or enlarge into the mix and it scales even more... but I get that a 30 str gnome throwing a human feels weird... and the game won't let you anyway.

also note that the limit of human capacity is 20, it feels pathetic to have a biggest reach with firebolt than a goblin when you have god level strength (hence the ~50 stats in 3.5, swimming up a waterfall was DD80, it was doable... kinda...)