I mean I'm not telling you to agree with me. I know I'm being very critical of it, but I get more out of the media I consume this way. I certainly didn't make anything about it up either, that's just us disagreeing about the nature of the content.
Originally Posted by rendemption
I’m just not sure if this can be considered as “taking advantage” of her when you’re both clueless af and could die at any moment.
This depends on what your character knows going into it. I almost never avoid learning that True Souls are clueless cuz I usually put off the Goblin camp stuff quite a bit. Having that knowledge makes it very exploitative in my eyes because your character is then actively choosing to indulge in what is clearly her only moment of clarity instead of taking the opportunity to talk her down. It feeds even further into the problems with the artifact's narrative inconsistency around her cuz the whole thing would play out better and be less messed if it was working and she had her right mind for more of your Act 1 interactions. But then given her values when she has her senses the assault as it currently happens wouldn't make as much sense. The way they contrived things to keep her exclusive is kinda just an actual mess on top of the bad moral implications of going for that sex scene.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. I personally didn’t think it was exploitative, talking to her about it out of nowhere would only lessen her trust in you and you had no idea how she would react if you exposed the Prism to her. You did get the opportunity to "talk her down", but only after you both did the deed and after she opened up to you - which makes sense.
About the bit on character knowledge, it makes me wonder if that’s the reason we can save Minsc with the Prism and not Minthara. Because our characters were still unaware of what the Prism can do, depending on how you play it.
Still though, I’d chalk it up to both Halsin and Minthara just being put in low priority during development. That’s why a lot of things are iffy with them if you look close enough. I’ll continue to root for a less evil way to recruit Minthara until the day Larian releases a Definitive Edition, if only so more people would be willing to experience her story and realize how great she is as a character.
Cool interviews with the actors for sure. She totally inhabited Minthara and gave it her all, you can just tell. Oh and when they talk about how it all comes together at PitStop, I find that all very fascinating, and love to hear more. Also Dan Allen is a badass for talking shop like this players and The Players. And for helping in the fight vs cancer, which I saw at the beginning of the Minthara video - that was cool too!
Also, Wyll and Karlach are still complete buffoons for leaving you in evil path - w/o Prism they'd mindflayer themselves.
So, didn't see before you complain about why the game don't allow you to make Karlach and Wyll as evil companions and keep them by side even after raid.
Because I prefer "Good" runs and this a thread about Minthara specifically. Simple as.
If you wanna my take, sure: they should either be still pressured into following you due to a bigger picture (opportunity to infiltrate the cult + them not surviving outside Prism's area of effect) or, them leaving you due to raid in Act 1 only to be prisoners (who can be rescued) in Act 2 at Moonrise similar to Minthara, Sazza/goblins, gnomes and tieflings. Wyll is still obligated to go looking for his father there + save Mizora and Karlach going all hero on the cultists/being on her way to Baldur's Gate to exact revenge on Gortash.
Also, Minthy's "love scene" creeps me out as it's pretty much taking advantage of a victim of mind control.
"I don't know myself anymore. Except tonight. Tonight, I wanted this - for myself" (c) Minthara "And most damning of all, an unexpected weakness - a longing for acceptance, and affection. From a mortal" (c) Questioner Jasin "You came. I prayed that you would, but there are no gods left to me" (c) Minthara "I know it was the Prism silenced the absolute in those moments, not you. But it wasn't the prism that held me, and touched my mind and body. That was you" (c) Minthara
Never played evil path, huh? Or you just can't interpret these words and actions correctly?
I did play Act 1 in EA and Act 1-2 on the release in evil path, but just opted out and installed "Daughter of Lolth" mod. Exclusivity or not, that path is not worth it as it feels super hollow.
A moment of waning control, strong confusion. She still tells you that most of her experience when under Absolute's control felt like a blur, not enough time even passed for her to form any proper opinion of you. Plus really, a Baenre House noble (a would-be matron no less) would lay with a complete stranger straight away? Sorry, but Act 1 shouldn't have had any sex scenes to begin with. Act 2-3 would be more appropriate. It just breaks the relationship progression flow.
Yeah, that’s what I thought. I personally didn’t think it was exploitative, talking to her about it out of nowhere would only lessen her trust in you and you had no idea how she would react if you exposed the Prism to her. You did get the opportunity to "talk her down", but only after you both did the deed and after she opened up to you - which makes sense.
About the bit on character knowledge, it makes me wonder if that’s the reason we can save Minsc with the Prism and not Minthara. Because our characters were still unaware of what the Prism can do, depending on how you play it.
Except our characters can become aware of that fact throughout Act 1, especially if you postpone Goblin Camp stuff.
Kill duegar in Underdark, rescue True Soul Nere and you'll have the opportunity to explain to him the effects of the Prism and that cult are basically a front for mind flayers. Even the scene with dying True Soul next owlbear cave and tadpole extraction, Halsin's notes/tadpole sample and dissected Drow corpse in Grove are big "No-No" in regards that the cult can be trusted and that Absolute is a legitimate deity.
So if that stuff works on Minsc (with a bit of persuasion), Nere (passively the moment you encounter him), so it should work on Minthara.
Except our characters can become aware of that fact throughout Act 1, especially if you postpone Goblin Camp stuff.
Kill duegar in Underdark, rescue True Soul Nere and you'll have the opportunity to explain to him the effects of the Prism and that cult are basically a front for mind flayers. Even the scene with dying True Soul next owlbear cave and tadpole extraction, Halsin's notes/tadpole sample and dissected Drow corpse in Grove are big "No-No" in regards that the cult can be trusted and that Absolute is a legitimate deity.
So if that stuff works on Minsc (with a bit of persuasion), Nere (passively the moment you encounter him), so it should work on Minthara.
I know. As I already said, that stuff largely depends on how you play. Most people I’ve seen deal with the Goblin Camp first before they go to the Underdark because of the difficulty jump, and that includes me. It becomes trivial and almost metagamey when you put it like that, but I agree that we should be able to save Minthara with the Prism. If not likely in Act 1, then at least in Moonrise Towers. I'm talking about a hypothetical "good" recruitment here.
I’m still of the opinion that, narratively, it makes more sense for Minthara to be able to flee from the fight at the Grove. Her dialogue prior to the raid has her saying "I do not intend to lead a suicidal charge. The goblins are expendable; I am not." - and yet the outcome of the battle contradicts with that. She just charges in until she dies.
I did play Act 1 in EA and Act 1-2 on the release in evil path, but just opted out and installed "Daughter of Lolth" mod. Exclusivity or not, that path is not worth it as it feels super hollow.
A moment of waning control, strong confusion. She still tells you that most of her experience when under Absolute's control felt like a blur, not enough time even passed for her to form any proper opinion of you. Plus really, a Baenre House noble (a would-be matron no less) would lay with a complete stranger straight away? Sorry, but Act 1 shouldn't have had any sex scenes to begin with. Act 2-3 would be more appropriate. It just breaks the relationship progression flow.
Can't see a problem at all. She's from matriarchy culture and high noble, she considers herself a dominating side especially if your tav/durge male (play male drow to see after first meeting with her that she still thinks herself superiour on you). She will only have problem if her child would be half-drow (if she ofcourse remains in the Menzoberranzan) that what will summon questions from other nobles. It's like our real medieval history where male nobles (dominating sex) could have many bastards and nobody gives attention, even more it could summon questions if you don't (about your fertility). So for me it's acceptable what I see in the game.
a Baenre House noble (a would-be matron no less) would lay with a complete stranger straight away?
You seem to forget that when you first meet her, she is worshipping the Absolute, not Lolth, and certainly not her House. In her eyes, you proved your worth when you led the Goblins and helped her decimate the Grove (as it was the Absolute's will). As for relationship progression, it's not that odd when you consider the harsh reality of their world. If that's not to your liking, that's completely valid, but don't expect Larian to change it. A swift jump to physical intimacy, before slowly making way for romance makes perfect sense to a lot of people.
Originally Posted by Bloodshed
She will only have problem if her child would be half-drow (if she ofcourse remains in the Menzoberranzan) that what will summon questions from other nobles.
When was this ever implied or said? Genuinely curious.
Minthara, to me, seems to disregard race entirely after she's freed from the Absolute. She retains some of her beliefs because a huge part of it made her strong, but it's clear she hates drow society and wants nothing more than to be free from it. Also, in her first meeting, she considers herself superior to you no matter what because she’s the Commander of the cult you’re stepping into. This point of view still holds true during that night of celebration.
Anyway, I assure you all, one night of mildly confusing sex after just being freed from mind control isn’t the worst that could happen in the world of Faerun. She took that small moment of clarity to spend the night with you, someone she holds to a high regard because of your aid. If you think that's weird, that’s entirely your opinion, and you are free to refuse her offer.
She will only have problem if her child would be half-drow (if she ofcourse remains in the Menzoberranzan) that what will summon questions from other nobles.
When was this ever implied or said? Genuinely curious.
Well, any source about half-drow in society of Menzoberranzan. Their fate mostly is to be sacrificed or become slaves. Absolute most of them is offsprings of male drow and woman other race. So for lolth-sworn drow female gives birth to a half-drow something equals sacrilege (and it's a bit obvious due to drow racism).
Minthara, to me, seems to disregard race entirely after she's freed from the Absolute. She retains some of her beliefs because a huge part of it made her strong, but it's clear she hates drow society and wants nothing more than to be free from it. Also, in her first meeting, she considers herself superior to you no matter what because she’s the Commander of the cult you’re stepping into. This point of view still holds true during that night of celebration..
I guess her gratitude override her racism as it should for most people especially after saving from death sentence situation.
Well, any source about half-drow in society of Menzoberranzan. Their fate mostly is to be sacrificed or become slaves. Absolute most of them is offsprings of male drow and woman other race. So for lolth-sworn drow female gives birth to a half-drow something equals sacrilege (and it's a bit obvious due to drow racism).
I see. I thought you were implying Minthara said that in-game. I don’t think she would care if the other nobles questioned her. She would, however, care if her child was to be harmed. In which case, she has stated that she would kill anyone who got in her way. And if she were to rule over Menzoberranzan, she would definitely try to reshape the rules or customs there.
I personally don’t like the Menzoberranzan ending for her as it’s much better for her to start anew and leave that (toxic) life behind, but that is a matter of preferences.
Originally Posted by Bloodshed
I guess her gratitude override her racism as it should for most people especially after saving from death sentence situation.
It’s not so much overriding as evolving lol. Clearly her world view gets challenged when she starts travelling with you.
My biggest pie in the sky ask for BG3 is an expansion dedicated to Minthara, Menzoberranzan, and fucking around with the Baenre family and Lolth's stuff in general. It gets so little play even in tabletop I would be THRILLED to have it. Shar and Selûne's involvement in BG3 is like the biggest highlight of DnD for me in the last decade for similar reasons. Unfortunately it seems kinda doomed to never happen with not only what a ridiculous amount of work that would be for a character most players just kill and forget, but their stance on that kind of expansion content is either it won't ever happen for this game, or if it does it'll be almost completely disconnected from our current party. It'd still be cool to do that sort of thing with her good-aligned kin under those conditions, but I'd love for her to be the one giving us all the exposition, and maybe flexing her Oath of Vengeance some more.
Back in early access between her talking up taking Tav there to be her consort in another life and that we have a good chunk of Underdark to explore, the game had me thinking we might even visit in the main plot at some point but alas, we did not.
My biggest pie in the sky ask for BG3 is an expansion dedicated to Minthara, Menzoberranzan, and fucking around with the Baenre family and Lolth's stuff in general.
Same! I can’t even begin to imagine the world of Menzoberranzan being implemented in the same engine of the game. As someone who really appreciates the visuals of the Underdark as it is, I would be blown away. Taking her vengeance one step further by dismantling the Houses or even the entire system would be incredible to see too.
Originally Posted by Auric
Unfortunately it seems kinda doomed to never happen with not only what a ridiculous amount of work that would be for a character most players just kill and forget,
Hopefully they "fix" this by adding another way to recruit her. People have been asking for it a lot, and it's been noticed in the official Discord Server. I'm still holding out hope because the game is still pretty early into its lifespan.
But yeah, I'd actually throw money at them to make that expansion, with or without Minthara’s involvement. Obviously I'd prefer if she were there, and maybe their stance on expansions could change considering their massive success - but I'll take what I can get lol. There are so many things Larian could expand with BG3 on its own. We just have to play the waiting game
My biggest pie in the sky ask for BG3 is an expansion dedicated to Minthara, Menzoberranzan, and fucking around with the Baenre family and Lolth's stuff in general.
Same! I can’t even begin to imagine the world of Menzoberranzan being implemented in the same engine of the game. As someone who really appreciates the visuals of the Underdark as it is, I would be blown away. Taking her vengeance one step further by dismantling the Houses or even the entire system would be incredible to see too.
Originally Posted by Auric
Unfortunately it seems kinda doomed to never happen with not only what a ridiculous amount of work that would be for a character most players just kill and forget,
Hopefully they "fix" this by adding another way to recruit her. People have been asking for it a lot, and it's been noticed in the official Discord Server. I'm still holding out hope because the game is still pretty early into its lifespan.
But yeah, I'd actually throw money at them to make that expansion, with or without Minthara’s involvement. Obviously I'd prefer if she were there, and maybe their stance on expansions could change considering their massive success - but I'll take what I can get lol. There are so many things Larian could expand with BG3 on its own. We just have to play the waiting game
We need DLC!
Baldurs Gate 3 - Shadows of Menzobaranzan
Minthara is the best character and she NEEDS to be recruitable if you side with the grove!
I see. I thought you were implying Minthara said that in-game. I don’t think she would care if the other nobles questioned her. She would, however, care if her child was to be harmed. In which case, she has stated that she would kill anyone who got in her way. And if she were to rule over Menzoberranzan, she would definitely try to reshape the rules or customs there.
I personally don’t like the Menzoberranzan ending for her as it’s much better for her to start anew and leave that (toxic) life behind, but that is a matter of preferences.
Well, I think it's impossible to reshape whole society until there will be objective reasons to develop. If we will try to dream about it I can say that Minthara could push rights for her possible half-drow offspring but nothing more and still he/she will be an outcast in this society because racism is a part of worshiping Lolth. If we speak about competetive god to Lolth - it will be Vhaeraun (god of drow males, thievery, territory, shadow magic, spellfilchers, and evil activities on the surface, aimed to further drow goals, interests, and power there) nothing will change except that this god attracts drow who want equal rights in gender part of society - overthrow matriarchy. This god is still about conquer and domination of drow over "lower" races. Hah, this is toxic life only from modern human morale actually for them it could be perfect life to be honest, sadly we cant ask them about it.
Originally Posted by rendemption
It’s not so much overriding as evolving lol. Clearly her world view gets challenged when she starts travelling with you.
Well, no. Later in the game she will call Orin "iblith" ('offal', 'excrement') - that is super racist insult to any race except surface elves (there is different insult) in drow language. In my opinion her racism stops at your non-drow character and companions because her gratitude and yours usefulness/love interest to you.
Well, no. Later in the game she will call Orin "iblith" ('offal', 'excrement') - that is super racist insult to any race except surface elves (there is different insult) in drow language. In my opinion her racism stops at your non-drow character and companions because her gratitude and yours usefulness/love interest to you.
She uses “iblith” for Orin because she was the one who manipulated her and caused her exile. She hates that woman (and herself) for practically ruining her life. The frequent usage of the word itself points towards racism, because drow society is racist, but the context of which she uses it in what you’re using as an example is not. She’s just saying Orin is shit, no matter what race she is.
Keep in mind, I’m not saying Minthara isn’t racist. Approximately 200 years of living in drow society will shape her to follow their teachings and it will be hard to break away from, but to me, she seems to tone it down further along the story and keeps a more pragmatic point of view. This is already seen when you first talk to her upon arriving at Baldur's Gate.
Originally Posted by Bloodshed
Well, I think it's impossible to reshape whole society until there will be objective reasons to develop.
Yep. The complications that you have pointed out is the exact reason why I don't think Minthy should go back there lol. Her Menzoberranzan ending is completely optional, and I'm grateful for that. Also, I'm not adding on about her half-drow offspring. The possibility of her having children is already getting to headcanon territory, so you can think however you wish
IIf we speak about competetive god to Lolth - it will be Vhaeraun (god of drow males, thievery, territory, shadow magic, spellfilchers, and evil activities on the surface, aimed to further drow goals, interests, and power there) nothing will change except that this god attracts drow who want equal rights in gender part of society - overthrow matriarchy.
Oh, also, funny you don't bring up Eilistraee when talking about competitive Gods to Lolth. I heard there is a recent change to drow society about multiple factions emerging which allows for more alignments, but I'm afraid I don't know enough to speak more on the matter. Something interesting to consider I guess! I don't think it's entirely impossible to reshape it.
