Tolkien was an insufferable tree hugger. One, with no enforcement of heteronormativity among elves. Even defining love free of the amatonormative.
'Silver' talking da real talk right there fuckers...
All y'all don't know shit about Phony Tolkein - dude was a tree-huggin' mf.
Oh, what's that? Care to repeat?
Because all I heard - and here's the god-damned, mf-ing facts y'all - was that the Big T was NOT enforcing no heteronormativity among elves.
Yeah, you read that right.
So don't y'all come back here talking about...
Actually, what are we even talking anymore? Thought the whole thread began with just some innocuous questioning of Larian's writing skillz (or lack thereof). Where in the name of JHC did we get to 'heteronormativity among elves'?
There's a block button. But look up my post history - the greasemonkey script I wrote is 100 times better, I'm quite proud of it. Just add my name to array I provided there, squire - it's getting a bit too surreal...
Unfortunately, your replies fell short of earning this exclusive spot.
You must know, in my mind cinema, there was you, monologuing, while the "plot" of spore hung over your head. Emphases on "worst ever" echoed thought-out the room. A blue critter made eye contact with me. Its improbable round, stupid eyes unaware of the honour awarded while I realize in horror, this may count. And it might count for every low budget indie game.
I simply must know more of the mind behind this conclusion. It is fascinating.
I think having more dry, situational, ironic comedy in greater representation could be nice. BG2 had aggressively comedic moments of different types. BG3 is definitely more serious than DOS2. Maybe tweaking the kind of humor represented is the way out.
I suspect that this is always going to be subjective and unfortunately I donāt think thereās thereās any easy way out thatās going to suit everyone, or any right answer. All we can do is share our impressions to give each other and Larian a sense of how things are landing for different folk.
And for me, personally, while some stuff could be polished, I donāt see the amount or quality of the comedy in BG3 so far as problematic, and generally enjoy the silly bits (even if the animals sometimes get too silly), the blacker comedy of Ethel, Molās gang and the goblins, the different ways in which our companions can be amusing, and so on.
I think my biggest problem with comedy in the game is that I donāt feel I can play an amusing, witty PC because the protagonist lines either arenāt there or arenāt well-written enough. I really hope thatās going to be addressed in the full release as itās not fun feeling my charismatic bard, for example, is too often the butt of othersā jokes without having the wit to dish it out in return.
Mainly, though, my issues with the writing lie elsewhere entirely, but I and others have already discussed that at length in other threads.
Agree with the idea that writing (and by extension, humor) are completely subjective, with arbitrary frameworks set up to give the veneer of "objectivity." At the end of the day, there will be things in the final game that you like and I don't, things that I like and you don't, things we both like, and things we both dislike. By the fact that we are both on the forum for the game, we seem to believe that the final product will have more "liked" things than "disliked" things, and that we hope to steer it in the right direction during early access.
I will say that your concern with your character not having witty lines (while the lines seem to be reserved for everyone--with weak writing-- but the player character) may be a product of how Larian handles Tav and the PC in general. You and I disagree as to how pivotal to the narrative Tav currently is, but we can (probably) agree that the roleplay options which aren't voiced should be plentiful, complex, and extremely well-written and revised.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
I think my biggest problem with comedy in the game is that I donāt feel I can play an amusing, witty PC because the protagonist lines either arenāt there or arenāt well-written enough. I really hope thatās going to be addressed in the full release as itās not fun feeling my charismatic bard, for example, is too often the butt of othersā jokes without having the wit to dish it out in return.
I will say that your concern with your character not having witty lines (while the lines seem to be reserved for everyone--with weak writing-- but the player character) may be a product of how Larian handles Tav and the PC in general. You and I disagree as to how pivotal to the narrative Tav currently is, but we can (probably) agree that the roleplay options which aren't voiced should be plentiful, complex, and extremely well-written and revised.
I do agree that the lack of witty lines for Tav (or possibly an origin character as protagonist) is part and parcel of what currently feels like throwaway writing for our protagonist as a whole. But, much as I appreciate your effort to find common ground , I donāt think the ideal solution to being able to develop and express our custom characters is to have plentiful unvoiced roleplay options as I desperately want our protagonist to be voiced, which isnāt about good writing but for me is incredibly important to making my protagonist present in the world.
As a voiced protagonist in practical terms limits the number of dialogue choices, my solution would instead need to emphasise quality over quantity, so I do agree protagonist lines need to be well-written but also very cleverly chosen. For example, we donāt need a joking response every single time (Iām definitely not asking for DA2 here!), but there should be enough of them that I feel I can pick sufficient such lines in appropriate places that will convey the impression of my character as irreverent, sarcastic, dry, or funny in whatever specific way that I want. This, Iām sure, is extremely difficult to do without the dialogue tree getting out of control once you chuck in all the other possible character traits we might want to express for our characters along with all the decisions and race/class/background stuff, but I think is what would be needed to make the writing in a RPG that gives the amount of freedom in character creation that BG3 does truly great.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I think my biggest problem with comedy in the game is that I donāt feel I can play an amusing, witty PC because the protagonist lines either arenāt there or arenāt well-written enough. I really hope thatās going to be addressed in the full release as itās not fun feeling my charismatic bard, for example, is too often the butt of othersā jokes without having the wit to dish it out in return.
I will say that your concern with your character not having witty lines (while the lines seem to be reserved for everyone--with weak writing-- but the player character) may be a product of how Larian handles Tav and the PC in general. You and I disagree as to how pivotal to the narrative Tav currently is, but we can (probably) agree that the roleplay options which aren't voiced should be plentiful, complex, and extremely well-written and revised.
I do agree that the lack of witty lines for Tav (or possibly an origin character as protagonist) is part and parcel of what currently feels like throwaway writing for our protagonist as a whole. But, much as I appreciate your effort to find common ground , I donāt think the ideal solution to being able to develop and express our custom characters is to have plentiful unvoiced roleplay options as I desperately want our protagonist to be voiced, which isnāt about good writing but for me is incredibly important to making my protagonist present in the world.
As a voiced protagonist in practical terms limits the number of dialogue choices, my solution would instead need to emphasise quality over quantity, so I do agree protagonist lines need to be well-written but also very cleverly chosen. For example, we donāt need a joking response every single time (Iām definitely not asking for DA2 here!), but there should be enough of them that I feel I can pick sufficient such lines in appropriate places that will convey the impression of my character as irreverent, sarcastic, dry, or funny in whatever specific way that I want. This, Iām sure, is extremely difficult to do without the dialogue tree getting out of control once you chuck in all the other possible character traits we might want to express for our characters along with all the decisions and race/class/background stuff, but I think is what would be needed to make the writing in a RPG that gives the amount of freedom in character creation that BG3 does truly great.
I don't really have a particular stance on voiced vs. unvoiced protagonist. I just suggested unvoiced because I thought that would give more options (which might increase the probability of there being a good dialogue option per interaction). I feel like asking for quality in dialogue is like asking for a good game-- we'll either get it or we won't, but we won't know until release.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
I don't really have a particular stance on voiced vs. unvoiced protagonist. I just suggested unvoiced because I thought that would give more options (which might increase the probability of there being a good dialogue option per interaction).
Yep, as discussed in the voiced protagonist thread itās likely to be a matter of where weāre happy to compromise, given the limitations of a computer vs TT game, and thatās going to vary from player to player. Personally, Iād vote for voiced protagonists at the cost of fewer dialogue options (though would still want the options I have to be well written and carefully chosen), and Iād opt for the complete freedom to define my custom characterās past before they were kidnapped over their history having in-game connections to the plot, but itās clear other folk would choose differently. I would probably choose differently myself, in games other than BG3.
But while I think choices on things like this might suit different games to a greater or lesser extent, I think they are largely separate from consideration of what makes good or bad writing, as it would still be possible in my view to have a well (or poorly) written game no matter where Larian end up striking the balance.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
One thing necessary for a good story, and perhaps even more so a story where you play the protagonist, is characterisation and character development of the protagonist. I think the writing in bg3 is severely lacking in that respect. Although it is clear what the protagonist looks like, it remains unclear what makes her tick, and how she develops as a result of circumstances and choices made. It feels like I am playing a mannequin instead of a real person. It makes the center of the story empty, and it really hampers opportunities for immersion through empathy.
I think a good example is the way the protagonist is cast in the role of leader. What has she done to deserve that? Why isn't she constantly challenged? What difficult choices does she have to make to retain her position? Why does she even want to be leader?
One thing necessary for a good story, and perhaps even more so a story where you play the protagonist, is characterisation and character development of the protagonist. I think the writing in bg3 is severely lacking in that respect. Although it is clear what the protagonist looks like, it remains unclear what makes her tick, and how she develops as a result of circumstances and choices made. It feels like I am playing a mannequin instead of a real person. It makes the center of the story empty, and it really hampers opportunities for immersion through empathy.
I broadly agree, but think BG3 has a different challenge than even many other RPGs given how much freedom it is trying to give us to create custom characters. Unlike in many other games, I wouldnāt quite say I want the game to āmake clearā what makes my character tick or how she develops, as I want to be able to determine that with as much freedom as possible. In a way, I suppose I do want an empty mannequin who can be animated by my imagination. But what I need from the game is the ability to bring that character to life by letting me enact my vision for who the character is, how they would act and why, and how they would change in light of what happens to them in the course of the plot. And I want to feel that the world and NPCs are responding to that, too. The game still needs to show characterisation and development, of course, but these need to be extremely flexible and driven by the player to an extent that I donāt think Iāve seen done better in any other game (recommendations gratefully received on that front!).
Originally Posted by Ikke
I think a good example is the way the protagonist is cast in the role of leader. What has she done to deserve that? Why isn't she constantly challenged? What difficult choices does she have to make to retain her position? Why does she even want to be leader?
I agree these are important questions, and I really want to see them play out over the course of the game. One of the things I liked about BG3 from the start was that, even in single player, we are gathering an adventuring party of people with a common problem but no inbuilt hierarchy. Iāll be disappointed if BG3 just sidesteps the issue of how our PC becomes the leader (if indeed they do) by means of some external plot device rather than giving us the opportunity to roleplay evolving party dynamics. Of course, doing that satisfactorily will require strengthening companion writing as well as that for our protagonist.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
One thing necessary for a good story, and perhaps even more so a story where you play the protagonist, is characterisation and character development of the protagonist. I think the writing in bg3 is severely lacking in that respect. Although it is clear what the protagonist looks like, it remains unclear what makes her tick, and how she develops as a result of circumstances and choices made. It feels like I am playing a mannequin instead of a real person. It makes the center of the story empty, and it really hampers opportunities for immersion through empathy.
I think a good example is the way the protagonist is cast in the role of leader. What has she done to deserve that? Why isn't she constantly challenged? What difficult choices does she have to make to retain her position? Why does she even want to be leader?
I've had more success with making characters feel real when doing a custom party. I make up each of their relationships and backgrounds. Works better, I suppose, since you're not slowly revealing who your Tav is throughout the story? I know the party from day 1.
What I mean to say... character sheets may help a lot, where you just write down everything about your character if you're solo.
I think a good example is the way the protagonist is cast in the role of leader. What has she done to deserve that? Why isn't she constantly challenged? What difficult choices does she have to make to retain her position? Why does she even want to be leader?
It makes sense to me that the pc is the groupās leader because she is the one recruiting people to join her group. They might leave or challenge her authority later on, but if they are willing to join, it makes sense they would follow at the start at least.
Also, who wouldnāt want to follow my ridiculously awesome sorcerer!š
**whoa insane: I hope the new mod didn't just power-trip delete this post without explaining, or I'll be going straight to Larian about it. Posting again.
Err, no. You posted it in a totally different thread here.
Way to make friends and influence people, though!
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
**whoa insane: I hope the new mod didn't just power-trip delete this post without explaining, or I'll be going straight to Larian about it. Posting again.
Err, no. You posted it in a totally different thread here.
**whoa insane: I hope the new mod didn't just power-trip delete this post without explaining, or I'll be going straight to Larian about it. Posting again.
Err, no. You posted it in a totally different thread here.
Way to make friends and influence people, though!
This moderator business is news to me. Unfortunately, I am afraid it makes us sworn enemies. Shitposters and moderators cannot coexist in society.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
This moderator business is news to me. Unfortunately, I am afraid it makes us sworn enemies. Shitposters and moderators cannot coexist in society.
Oh dear š. But I guess as long as our enmity is conducted without resorting to flaming, trolling or derailing reasonable discussions, Iāll just have to suck it up .
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I don't want voice acting for my custom character everything else is fine. I prefer to imagine my characters voice the way I imagine it should sound.
You may already have seen it, but I actually created a poll on voiced protagonists last month that included discussion on this topic, and itās clear many folk agree with you though (so far) more respondents do want the option to hear their characters.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
This moderator business is news to me. Unfortunately, I am afraid it makes us sworn enemies. Shitposters and moderators cannot coexist in society.
Oh dear š. But I guess as long as our enmity is conducted without resorting to flaming, trolling or derailing reasonable discussions, Iāll just have to suck it up .
IS THAT A CHALLENGE?
Last edited by Zerubbabel; 26/02/2307:22 PM.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):