Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Siding with Kagha—a story dead end?

Okay, so as a Lolth-Sworn Drow, Kagha is scratching me right where I itch, and I declared myself happy to go and offer Zevlor my "help" as a "guide" with the intent to lead his peeps (along with those snotty thieving brats) to the slaughter. Kagha even said they'd pay me handsomely for my "services."

When I went to talk to Zevlor he blathered something about the Blade of the Frontiers (sitting in my camp by then), but when I wanted to suggest that it was time for the tieflings to avail themselves of my "guidance," the only dialogue option was that I'd been "asked to escort them out of the grove," whereupon Zevlor went hostile and, having no choice but to defend myself against his intemperate nature, I murdered him. The tieflings outside the room remained apparently unaware of this development. When I reported the news to Kagha, she said that it should be no problem to get the rest of his people out, as well.

Not so!

Short of butchering the lot of them, which also has the druids go hostile, there's absolutely no way to go ahead with this scheme. So it looks like I'll still be left with the very limited choice of siding with Minthara and seeing the entire grove getting slaughtered (cows and all), or defending it against her. So lame!

It's especially bewildering/frustrating since Kagha's request to offer to lead the tieflings out of the grove seems to suggest that there is a possibility of you leading the tieflings into some kind of ambush—which would probably get you into conflict with Wyll—but that certainly does not pan out.

Am I overlooking something, is there some story option still missing in EA, or did the devs really assume that no one would accept Kagha's proposal? Basically, I'd be thrilled to boot the Tieflings, let her seal the grove, and be on my merry way. Heck, I'll even rub out Halsin if he gets in the way, tadpole be damned—the sumfabitch ends up blackmailing me, anyway. Not possible? This bone-headed limitation has me questioning the wisdom of picking the game up, to be honest.

P.S.: Don't worry about spoilers—I played through the currently available content already, and short of minor stuff, I've seen pretty much all it's got to offer at the moment.

Presently, I don't think it's possible. And there has been little if any change throughout EA concerning this quest line. I've attempted it twice, once at the beginning of EA and again a couple of patches ago. Each time the druids simply go hostile, resulting in a complete massacre of the grove. Maybe they'll eventually remove those dialogue options if they're not interested in finishing the quest?

What a shame. I guess Minthara it is, then... at least my Drow will get wined and dined and 69'ed after clearing the board.

As far as i know Kagha only speculates that Tieflings would surely pay your for your help ... i wouldnt search for anything deeper than that.

Here is your misstake.

Kagha suggests you to lead them out ... bcs that is what she want, she dont care how possible it is, you were just told to handle that, its yours problem now.
When you talk to Zevlor ... or rather, when i did (it is possible that we picked different dialogue choices and you discovered some shortcut, dont really know without screenshots) ... he specificaly states that they WILL NOT LEAVE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES until Goblin threat will be dealt with. Ok, hes using different words, but this is basicaly his message.

So as you keep pushing him, it makes sense that he become hostile ... but i agree there should be dialogue option to say "fine, have it your way ... coward" or something like that, there is really no reason for *dialogue choice* if you have only one.

But no, as Zevlor say there is no way they would ever leave the Grove unless Goblin leaders are dead ... so, no chance to lead them ... well, anywhere.

Well, if this was your goal ... then you were on right track.

If you kill Zevlor, report it back to Kagha, and then Long Rest (i strongly advice doing it OUTSIDE of the Grove ...
The Grove will get sealed ... Tieflings will be gone ... and all druids inside will become hostile.

There is (at least curently) no reward for this approach, and you cant then side with Goblins, bcs Minthara will be pissed that bcs of you she cant massacre the Grove as she wanted to.
So your only way then would be side with very depressed Halsin, but you can leave Goblin leaders alive, bcs he no longer cares if they die or not!

But it is possible!

there probably are missing story elements.

Siding with Kahga initially or uncovering the shadow druid plot and joining them definitely seem like either unfinished (waiting for full release) or cut content. I would be very disappointed if the final version of the druid/tiefling conflict is what we have right now. Last I checked if you insist on helping Kahga, you fight and kill Zevlor and it just kinda....ends. I know that there is a resolution to this quest where Kahga initiates the rite of thorns and the grove is blocked off, but I'm not really sure how you are supposed to 'get' that conclusion aside from manually murdering each and every Tiefling since they don't react to Zevlor's early death in any way.

Not gonna lie, I found the whole Tiefling/Druid conflict very unsatisfying to play through as an evil Player Character-there just doesn't seem to be any real quest infrastructure supporting that option right now, and it doesn't help that although you are presented with the option of helping Kahga, the game clearly doesn't want you to actually follow up on it, since it's essentially a dead end and basically sabotages your efforts if you go through with it since you lose access to the other grove resources/merchants/quests/etc (and even Kahga herself basically says she won't reward you for it).

Uncovering the Shadow Druid plot only to be hit with 'invitation only, and you aren't invited' when you offer your support was a real sucker punch though. you don't even get the option to just leave and let the shadow druids sort things out, you just have the awkward option to pivot from offering to help the evil druids to debating Kahga to turn away on moral grounds(or not) and then combat.

This quest is *extremely* railroady. Can't imagine the frustration trying to roleplay an evil druid yourself through this.

The thing about joining the shadow druids is that itentirely makes sense why we wouldn't be able to from a gameplay perspective. Their goals are entirely antithetical to continuing the story. They want to close off and isolate the grove. We don't get any indication that this group wants anything more than that, certainly nothing that would require an outside agent. Joining them would mean staying in the grove and ending the game. Why would they help us? They want to be isolated and our tadpole condition, if they were to learn about it, requires us leaving. Either that or staying and risking that we become mindflayers and potentially kill them all. We also have nothing to offer them. We could help them get rid of the tieflings? They asked to do that already and instead we exposed them in front of a group of other druids they now have to kill to keep themselves secret.

Cool


I'm guessing it's safe to say you've explored every possible dialogue choice in EA?

Yes, this sums up what is a big part of my dissatisfaction with the Kahga/Shadow druid options. We are presented an option-obviously aimed at less morally-inclined characters, but there is no 'carrot' to this option. Kahga doesn't offer to aid us with any insight to our condition, doesn't even offer us a few coppers for our trouble (compared with if you aid the tieflings and/or uncover the plot, you get special magical items) The option is there, but it doesn't make much sense, and it feels very incomplete, almost vestigial. Similarly with the offer to aid the shadow druids ending with you getting shot down-The Shadow Druids likely have access to resources and knowledge that the normal druids do not, aiding them and getting their favor is the sort of opportunity that would be attractive to evil players who don't want to join the cult of the absolute-the game is pretty stingy as of right now when it comes with evil allies you can recruit to fight the absolute. (and I don't think aiding the Shadow Druids would require sealing ourselves in the grove-no reason we'd have to stay for the rite itself, just help them clean out the opposition)

Ah, I see. Not terrifically satisfying as a narrative direction—missing out on the Minthara plot branch is a bummer—but at least it is an option. Still, maybe just siding with Minthara delivers more of a payoff in every regard; the way things stand currently, Kagha doesn't offer squat for siding with her.



That's just the thing that gripes me... there should be an option to trick him, to make him believe that the goblins are dealt with and it's safe for the tieflings to leave—only to find that the goblins are alive and well and waiting for them. This could be very interesting especially if you have Wyll in your party, or even back in the camp.



By the way, thanks all for your insights, much appreciated!

But if you don't stay, then what's the point in getting their favor? They're staying in the grove, they're not going to be of any use to you beyond the grove and you're not going to be of any use to them since they already have the thing they want. Aiding them gains you the favor of a group that's sealed themselves away and isn't interested in interacting with the outside world anymore. Though fair enough, they could offer to give us insight on our tadpoles to get rid of us. But helping us against the absolute? I don't think for a second they'd do that since again, their whole thing is isolating the grove and themselves.

Also, I feel like Kagha does offer to pay us. Am I remembering wrong?

Or ... it was never intended as a questline and you just connected wrong dots ... ben there.

Exactly as you just described ...
You just need to report it then, and long rest ...

Its called consequences ... and this one not just makes perfect sense, but you are warned about them by every-single NPC ... yet you decided to do it anyway ... now you have what you wanted.
You dont like it? Well, thats understandable, but not a fault of the game.

Technically you can run out ... not sure what effect it would have tho, i never tryed it before.

Nah, far from it.
I have replayed it a lot tho.

Well, true ... but if you check the situation from her perspective, she dont really needs us.
Ritual is ongoing, her "forces" dont let anyone to inner circle, so there is no way anyone would interupt it again ... all she need by now is just time, and her plan will work by itself.

The fact that she sends us to Zevlor, so we offer our protection is only proof that she is not so coldhearted as it may seem at first sight.
She dont really *want* to do any harm to Tieflings, she is meerely willing to do *anything* to keep her people safe the way she conciders to be best.

Indeed ... this is interesting.
After all, if we kill Halsin AND Goblin leaders, we return to the Grove alone, claiming that everything is fine now ... and they just believe us.

Maybe there are some Tiefling scouts that report back to Zevlor activities in the camp?
We meet some during the game.

BTW ... there may be another small problem with this idea, you would need to somehow persuated Goblins to make the ambush. Wich means persuate Minthara, who is quite eager to kill whole Grove ... and while divide and conquer is good tactic, im not quite sure if she would be willing to listen to reason ... concidering how sure she is that her Goblin army will burn the Grove to the ground.

Allways glad to help. ^_^
Whether people want it or not. :P

The Shadow Druids are a pretty large group. Getting their favor would mean getting a pretty large and powerful group in our corner-pretty handy against the absolute. Just like the non-shadow druids can help us, there's no reason the shadow druids couldn't give similar support, and there's no reason why our need to leave the grove to continue on towards the tower and the desire of the shadow druids in the grove to stay behind. They could give their insight/quest rewards/etc and/or send kahga or whoever to tag along in place of Halsin. Alternatively, if we do their dirty work for them, the rite is unnecessary, since their goal was to isolate the grove so they could weed out the druids that didn't see ideologically eye-to-eye with.

And unless something's changed or my memory is failing me, Kahga doesn't give you jack. You kill Zevlor and the quest basically hits a brick wall and she basically shrugs it off.

Are the shadow druids a large group? The game gives no indication of that. I assumed that shadow druids were a philosophy rather than an organization that really interacted with each other in any sort of broad, organized way. They didn't strike me as a group who had a meaningful wide hierarchy. Like this group would be pursuing their goals independant of any other group Plus on a meta level, I don't believe for a moment that this whole druid questline will be at all relevant once we leave this nameless starting area anyway. That's why their goal is to close off the grove, so that once the plot point is done, we don't have to worry about it anymore.

Yes, they are a large enough group. Not Zhentarum level, but certainly regional. They were as far south as Amn in the original game. You can find a book in the game indicating that they trace a lineage back to the Faldorn who was a member of the Cloakwood group. And if we can count among our allies who promise to aid us in our battle groups like a Deep Gnome clan and the Myconids, I don't see why not. The absolute is a threat to the Shadow Druids too (if you side with Minthara all the Shadow Druids and Kahga end up dead-they make no distinction) It is absolutely in their best interests. Besides, if we do them a favor, they can do a favor for us-even evil groups understand the value of allies.

Thats quite some asumption there ...
Why would they own us anything? Their plan was working perfectly by itself, we merely speeded things up.

What kind of lunatic would risk his life for someone who managed to do soething that would happen anyway? :-/

Or they can cut our head off ... bcs they are radicals, and we are turning into unnatural abomination.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Druids

You seem to forget all those attacks on the Grove everyone is talking about ...
That is another thing ritual should protect them against! Plus any future traveler that would like to settle there aswell.

And even if it would be unnecessary, what reason would they have to not finish it?
They want to do it, they have everything they need, there is nothing stoping them ... unnecessary may not be even near to good enough for them to stop.

Again, Cult of absolute threatens *everyone* And help is help. Kahga literally asks for your help in-game already. Heling them with the Tieflings or the druids would be doing them a service no matter how you slice it. And it would make a heck of a lot more sense for them to not fling back the helping hand offered them, particularly when that hand might belong to another druid, who they already have a demonstrated interest in spreading their ideology to.

Or they can cut our head off ... bcs they are radicals, and we are turning into unnatural abomination.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shadow_Druids[/quote]
Or they could ...not... Y'know, like you could ally with them in BG I+II. Their leader in BG III was literally a party member in the first game. This is just fishing for excuses to explain why this weird half-finished quest is the way it is in the game.

You seem to forget all those attacks on the Grove everyone is talking about ...
That is another thing ritual should protect them against! Plus any future traveler that would like to settle there aswell.

And even if it would be unnecessary, what reason would they have to not finish it?
They want to do it, they have everything they need, there is nothing stoping them ... unnecessary may not be even near to good enough for them to stop.[/quote]
The reason they want to do it is to take over the grove, doing it via the rite or expediated via the player's hand is just different means to the same end. The rite isn't something all shadow druids live under, it was just a means to an end-a risky one too as explained in the game.

Besides, the rite being performed in one grove doesn't protect them everywhere. Again, the cult is a threat everywhere in the region.

Technically true ... on the other hand, it dont seems like *everyone* knows about the cult.
On the contrary, it seems like *nobody* knows about them.

So, you want to unite forces that despite your way of living against common enemy they never met and who never threatened them directly. O_o
[irony] Yeah, that would totally work well. [/irony]

Eh ... did we play the same game?
Bcs in mine, she dont asks for anything ... she meerely points out that Tieflings would use your help. O_o

This isnt *I* need you to do something for *me* scenario ...
This is when *I* do what *Im* doing, *they* would need you ... so if you are interested, go talk to them.

Well, it saves them some trouble ... that much is true.
But dont overstate it, we meerely make it easier for them, hardly anything more.

I cant agree with this, they are not looking for convertites ...
If they would, they would simply teach Tieflings the way of Druidism, converting them in the process ...

You are talking about helping them ... but if you would really want to help them, you wouldnt expose Kagha, they would never know, and the Grove would be sealed ... if you interfere, you are creating unnecessary problems in the process ... true, you can state afterwards that you dont really care, or want to help, but at that point, you allready screwed it.
Why exactly would they risk that you screw something else in the future?

Oh you played as future Mind Flayer in BG I or II? No? Didnt think so ...
So how exactly is that relevant?

Different game, different time, different stakes, different situation, and most importantly entirely different Game Master.

This is just fishing for excuses to fullfill some weird fanfiction of yours. :-/

Well, if you mean by it that both lead to sealing the Grove and severing any, and i mean ANY, connection to outside world, then yes ...

Maybe they do now ...
I mean, we only explored quite small area *somewhere in the wilderness around Chionthar* ... how can we say what is happening elsewhere?

Be honest ... lets imagine you are leader of Shadow Druids for a second, yes?
If you would have a several places, that you would need to protect ... and lets say that you would know about threat that may cause them harm ... and you would have ritual, that you would believe to keep them all safe ...
What would you do?
A) Send them all instructions to do the ritual ... therefore keep them safe and protected against every and any outside influence or problems ...
B) Send your whole cult into open war, potentialy against rest of the world, with uncertain end, bcs "some random dude in middle of nowhere, interfered with one of your agents asignment, but in the end that dude decided to take your side, after he threatened everything" ...
And again ... be honest.

Jesus, you just love being contrary, don't you. The shadow druids in game literally do not give two hoots about our condition, they won't even bring it up in the conversation with them- don't pretend this is a crucial part of their dogma to kill everyone infected with tadpoles on sight that precludes talking to them, this is just reaching for excuses.

The Shadow Druids have operations elsewhere, and like all druids have interest in preserving nature (their way) letting the absolute control everything goes against their goals, particularly when the cultists want to kill everyone with a different religion. You really think the rite of thorns is a one-size-fit all solution to all the Shadow Druid's problems? You haven't been around the Shadow Druids much. A singular solution to all their problems would be both extremely boring as a narrative excuse to excise them from the game and run counter to their aims and methods. They are not passive, they are expansionist, and in fact their use of the rite in this game is particularly aggressive, since they aim to use it to isolate the druids of the grove and kill off the ones they don't like so they can gain full control.

The fact that you admit that the version of the Shadow Druids you want to see in the game is different than the one in the original saga and yet you have the chutzpah to refer to the notion that 'we could work with group X that we could also work with in literally every other game of the series' as fanfiction is just

The quest is railroady, has no accommodations for players who might not be playing good-aligned characters, and has several obvious dead-ends where content was either cut or otherwise left unfinished. This is not an ideal state. And I do not believe anyone could honestly get as riled up about the idea that it could be improved somewhat as you are.