People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
Than year from now "the game is actually ready to be played now" edition.
System supports multiple party members entering combat already, so unless there is something fundamental in how the game is build that prevents it from happening when character is stealthed, I don't think it is an impossible change. Tweaking rules is realistic, building new systems is not.
Allegiedly some games play around with rather big rules - I remember Jake Solomon talking about him going back and forth on some pretty fundamental decisions weeks before release of XCOM1.
I am not expecting for that to happen, not because release is in August but because it would be a third Larian RPG with poor stealth system in a row. Unless they do mock reviews, and get panned for stealth, but I doubt they will change anything.
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
I wouldn't call the changes discussed here "complete overhauls" most of them are really simple like changing the normal "Hide" to cost an action, and furthermore, they can be applied independently from each other, no need to do all of them.
Anyway, while I asked for many changes I don't think they are essential for the game full release and I dont think that is the true deadline. Larian has been working on this genre for a while and reused the system from Divinity here, asking for changes in the systems is not only for BG3, but for future games/patches as well.
Everybody within X distance enters combat even if stealthed = fairly simple. This is already essentially implemented, just for non-stealthed characters. This could include a surprise round if the entire party is undetected when combat begins.
Enemies use detection circles instead of lines = moderately simple. I assume that Larian already has the ability to easily adjust sight-cone width; just set it to 360 degrees.
Enemies use both a sight cone and hearing circle = more difficult. However, it is still using mechanics that are already implemented in game; I'm not sure if the code currently allows two detection areas...
Attacking from stealth removes stealth = extremely trivial
Enemy AI is better at detecting/approaching stealthed characters = more difficult. There are a variety of ways this can be implemented, with a simple implementation being: "if the enemy can't detect any PCs, they walk towards the last location they saw one. Otherwise, they take the Dodge action."
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
I wouldn't call the changes discussed here "complete overhauls" most of them are really simple like changing the normal "Hide" to cost an action, and furthermore, they can be applied independently from each other, no need to do all of them.
Anyway, while I asked for many changes I don't think they are essential for the game full release and I dont think that is the true deadline. Larian has been working on this genre for a while and reused the system from Divinity here, asking for changes in the systems is not only for BG3, but for future games/patches as well.
Also we don't know what is in the actual final game. The EA framework is very different from the Full game framework. Nobody but the QA folks and Devs/execs have seen that.
At this point I am really holding off on saying anything until that full game gets released. Larian is unlikely to comment about the current state of the game until after August 31st. They are in Optimization and get all the things done mode.
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
OK so just accept this jank even though its seriouly terrible programming..
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
???
Just about none of this should be news to Larian. The game has been in Early Access for two years already, and a lot of these issues are ones which people have been bringing up since the beginning of EA.
Additionally, a lot of this is tweaks, not requiring a tear-down-and-revamp.
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
???
Just about none of this should be news to Larian. The game has been in Early Access for two years already, and a lot of these issues are ones which people have been bringing up since the beginning of EA.
And they haven't made the changes you want in all that time.
Yeah, stealth being broken is absolutely intentional. Larian desperately wants to give the player advantage on every attack, not only because it largely trivializes connecting with a target but also because it effectively removes the vast majority of debuffs in the game, which impose disadvantage on the player. But, it doesn't stop there! In this game, stealth is the ultimate offensive and defensive strategy. It provides invulnerability at the cost of a bonus action. To the enemy AI, the player ceases to exist when hidden.
Swen said in a presentation that they take great pride in 'broken' mechanics like this, as it makes the player feel 'clever' when they discover them, though I can't imagine why.
Yeah, stealth being broken is absolutely intentional. Larian desperately wants to give the player advantage on every attack, not only because it largely trivializes connecting with a target but also because it effectively removes the vast majority of debuffs in the game, which impose disadvantage on the player. But, it doesn't stop there! In this game, stealth is the ultimate offensive and defensive strategy. It provides invulnerability at the cost of a bonus action. To the enemy AI, the player ceases to exist when hidden.
Swen said in a presentation that they take great pride in 'broken' mechanics like this, as it makes the player feel 'clever' when they discover them, though I can't imagine why.
Did he really say that? Do you have the link for that? That doesn't sound like Swen, but who knows.
You know there is also the hope/possibility that we will have a "core rules" option for Bg3, just like Bg1 and 2 had.
Yeah, stealth being broken is absolutely intentional. Larian desperately wants to give the player advantage on every attack, not only because it largely trivializes connecting with a target but also because it effectively removes the vast majority of debuffs in the game, which impose disadvantage on the player. But, it doesn't stop there! In this game, stealth is the ultimate offensive and defensive strategy. It provides invulnerability at the cost of a bonus action. To the enemy AI, the player ceases to exist when hidden.
Swen said in a presentation that they take great pride in 'broken' mechanics like this, as it makes the player feel 'clever' when they discover them, though I can't imagine why.
Did he really say that? Do you have the link for that? That doesn't sound like Swen, but who knows.
You know there is also the hope/possibility that we will have a "core rules" option for Bg3, just like Bg1 and 2 had.
It was during the Q&A after his GDC talk: at about 57:35 (The Making of Divinity: Original Sin 2). The person asking the question called it a 'back door', which I translate to 'exploit', just as Swen translated it to an exploit in his answer. Basically, they leave these in intentionally, because some players like to 'glitch' the game. Leaving in exploits is "Literally by design" in his own words.
Did he really say that? Do you have the link for that? That doesn't sound like Swen, but who knows.
Exact quotes aside, he's expressed this sentiment repeatedly during the various panels from hell, and it does indeed match his stated outlook. He absolutely likes to cheat and exploit, considers it fun and funny, can't seem (in my opinion of his commentary) to imagine that anyone else wouldn't, and fights to keep as much and as many of these utterly broken elements in the game as he can. He's spoken at various instances during the panels about battling with the design crew to keep various 'features' that either get tuned back or fixed.
Did he really say that? Do you have the link for that? That doesn't sound like Swen, but who knows.
Exact quotes aside, he's expressed this sentiment repeatedly during the various panels from hell, and it does indeed match his stated outlook. He absolutely likes to cheat and exploit, considers it fun and funny, can't seem (in my opinion of his commentary) to imagine that anyone else wouldn't, and fights to keep as much and as many of these utterly broken elements in the game as he can. He's spoken at various instances during the panels about battling with the design crew to keep various 'features' that either get tuned back or fixed.
Thank you for that. That’s unfortunate. I think the first thing we will do on the server is require a “no exploits” mod for any serious runs. None of my core players like that crap.
Whenever we have a new person in one of our groups that starts using the exploits - thinking they are being clever - you can feel everyone in the channel rolling their eyes and then we explain that “we know we just don’t do that because it’s cheap”
And they haven't made the changes you want in all that time.
They also knew about Wizards being able to cast from scrolls containing spells not on their spell list since the start of EA too, but they eventually, eventually fixed that (I think).
What's your point? How would remaining silent about this help? Is there any good reason to not bring this issue up?
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
People asking for complete gameplay overhauls when release is August? I mean, I get wanting changes, but let's be realistic here, almost everything we've seen gameplay wise is set in stone, it's not changing.
Eh, they have had plenty of opportunity to test stealth in EA. They are more likely to be interested in content that players in EA didn't get to try.
At this point, which criteria Larian choose to tweak something is a complete mystery to me. They have already adressed some popular criticism during the entierty the EA period while leaving others without a word for 3 years. So I choose to believe nothing is set in stone until I see the final product.
Well, maybe Larian has responded, in a way. Then again, it is April the first.
But, the best that those who are unhappy with the system can probably hope for is removal of 'auto-stealth' when attacking a creature outside their radius of response. This 'auto-stealth' is a QOL feature I could do without. It kind of forces one to barge into encounters, to avoid interacting with the stealth system.
Yeah, stealth being broken is absolutely intentional. Larian desperately wants to give the player advantage on every attack, not only because it largely trivializes connecting with a target but also because it effectively removes the vast majority of debuffs in the game, which impose disadvantage on the player. But, it doesn't stop there! In this game, stealth is the ultimate offensive and defensive strategy. It provides invulnerability at the cost of a bonus action. To the enemy AI, the player ceases to exist when hidden.
Swen said in a presentation that they take great pride in 'broken' mechanics like this, as it makes the player feel 'clever' when they discover them, though I can't imagine why.
Did he really say that? Do you have the link for that? That doesn't sound like Swen, but who knows.
You know there is also the hope/possibility that we will have a "core rules" option for Bg3, just like Bg1 and 2 had.
It was during the Q&A after his GDC talk at about 57:35 (The Making of Divinity: Original Sin 2). The person asking the question called it a 'back door', which I translate to 'exploit', just as Swen translated it to an exploit in his answer. Basically, they leave these in intentionally, because some players like to 'glitch' the game. Leaving in exploits is "Literally by design" in his own words.
Yeah, I made a similar point barely a couple of weeks ago (or at least that was the LAST time I made it) even referring to the same exact quote as an example, but the thread was left to die immediately after.
Well, maybe Larian has responded, in a way. Then again, it is April the first.
But, the best that those who are unhappy with the system can probably hope for is removal of 'auto-stealth' when attacking a creature outside their radius of response. This 'auto-stealth' is a QOL feature I could do without. It kind of forces one to barge into encounters, to avoid interacting with the stealth system.
I don't want to be overly dramatic about it, but this reads almost as a middle finger to people unhappy about the exploits. "We like our cheese and you better learn to deal with it".
Last edited by Tuco; 01/04/2308:38 PM.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Well, maybe Larian has responded, in a way. Then again, it is April the first.
But, the best that those who are unhappy with the system can probably hope for is removal of 'auto-stealth' when attacking a creature outside their radius of response. This 'auto-stealth' is a QOL feature I could do without. It kind of forces one to barge into encounters, to avoid interacting with the stealth system.
I don't want to be overly dramatic about it, but this reads almost as a middle finger to people unhappy about the exploits. "We like our cheese and you better learn to deal with it".
