A certain monster hunter is looking for him. Though I’ve never taken the option to try to hand Astarion over, so I don’t know the consequences if we do.
I checked the video. His last words are "you treacherous little worm" 🐛. I guess he'll be seething in Bg when we fight his master
To avoid undue influence I’m going to give my impressions before I read what everyone else has said, so apologies for any repetition!
As of the end of EA, I don’t trust any of the companions to put my PC or the group ahead of their own personal agendas. Which is fair enough, as we’ve not known each other for long, and while in some cases it might feel as though we’re tentatively feeling towards friendship, it’s too soon for it to be plausible that we’ve got there yet.
But some companions do seem to be more honest than others. My ranking, with the most honest first:
1. Gale straightforwardly tells us that there’s something he’s unwilling to share, rather than lying. He seems to value magic over people and in the past has taken huge risks with his own and others’ safety but it feels as though he’s learned a lesson and is trying to do better. And I believe, once he opens up, he’s honest about who he is and what his motivations are.
2. Astarion initially tries to hide he’s a vampire spawn, but that seems understandable. Once that “secret” is out, I believe that he shows us who he really is. Okay, that’s an apparently selfish individual who is going to prioritise his own safety and getting power, but I don’t think he lies about it.
3. Lae’zel seems to be a good githyanki soldier, but I’m not quite buying it. Her fanaticism and what feels almost like a personal obsession with Vlakith may be normal in her society, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find that she’d put noses out of joint back at her crèche and was in some sort of disgrace. I’m not getting a sense of any deeper dishonesty, but I do get the impression she’s putting on a front.
4. Wyll gives us the most reason to distrust him, given he asks us to kill the goblin leaders to save the tieflings, then when he has to admits he actually has an ulterior motive of a grudge against goblins, which still turns out not to be entirely honest as his ulterior motive is actually tracking down Mizora. Plus we don’t know what he’s already done at her behest or what finally led him to say no, it feels as though there’s still something to discover about what happened with the goblin raid that led to him agreeing to the pact in the first place, and he seems to have quite a temper and a lack of scruples when it comes to getting what he wants. I think we probably do know who he is by the end of EA, but given his history I’m not confident enough to trust him.
5. Shadowheart rings all sorts of warning bells for me, even more so now she’s been made “nicer”. It depends to some extent how you interact with her, but it feels to me as though she’s trying to worm herself into our good graces by means of flattery, selective honesty, and subtly driving a wedge between our PC and the rest of the party. I’m sure I wouldn’t be as suspicious if she weren’t a Shar worshipper, but given she is it’s hard not to notice that so much of what she says could be taken as manipulation. And it’s to her credit that I’m not 100% sure she’s not honest despite the fact I know she’s a trickery cleric serving a goddess of secrets, and in some playthroughs she’s the one who most genuinely feels as though she’s becoming a friend. I’ll actually be disappointed if it turns out she wasn’t putting on an act.
Now to read what everyone else thinks …
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I love everyone's answers and alot of you make fair points...i dont know who to trust anymore XD
Anyone with maxed out affinity, because that's how it usually goes with this stuff. Even the occasional "betrayer" will have the "redemption quest" available at that point.
Camellia was an interesting twist in wotr, there was no redemption, she was simply a sociopath and either you were okay with that or you weren't She wasn't going to stop being who she is regardless of what quest you did.
I think you're correct though, I think it'll be a 'max out affinity and do their quest and they trust you/become nicer'.
Well, yes and no, because technically speaking Camellia never really attempts to betray, abandon or backstab you, either. It's more than once you discover she's the deranged psychopathic she is, it's up to you to "overlook her "minor personal quirk" or going "Not on my watch, Jack the Ripper".
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
I'm not saying it's a good idea, or one that will fly well.... just that it's something I would expect from Larian's calibre of over-the-top character backstories.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, or one that will fly well.... just that it's something I would expect from Larian's calibre of over-the-top character backstories.
At the very least, it might be interesting for it to be so that instead of betraying the PC, Shadowheart has been betraying herself the whole time. Culminating in her standing in front of a mirror, tears in her eyes, screaming, "How could you do this to me!?" Like me when I procrastinate and leave future me with a workload that past me didn't feel like doing.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
I trust none of the companions tbh. While I like some more (Shadowheart) than others (Astarion), I trust none of them. They all clearly have their own agenda and the potential to betray you.
Last edited by fylimar; 07/03/2307:51 AM.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
To avoid undue influence I’m going to give my impressions before I read what everyone else has said, so apologies for any repetition!
As of the end of EA, I don’t trust any of the companions to put my PC or the group ahead of their own personal agendas. Which is fair enough, as we’ve not known each other for long, and while in some cases it might feel as though we’re tentatively feeling towards friendship, it’s too soon for it to be plausible that we’ve got there yet.
But some companions do seem to be more honest than others. My ranking, with the most honest first:
1. Gale straightforwardly tells us that there’s something he’s unwilling to share, rather than lying. He seems to value magic over people and in the past has taken huge risks with his own and others’ safety but it feels as though he’s learned a lesson and is trying to do better. And I believe, once he opens up, he’s honest about who he is and what his motivations are.
2. Astarion initially tries to hide he’s a vampire spawn, but that seems understandable. Once that “secret” is out, I believe that he shows us who he really is. Okay, that’s an apparently selfish individual who is going to prioritise his own safety and getting power, but I don’t think he lies about it.
3. Lae’zel seems to be a good githyanki soldier, but I’m not quite buying it. Her fanaticism and what feels almost like a personal obsession with Vlakith may be normal in her society, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find that she’d put noses out of joint back at her crèche and was in some sort of disgrace. I’m not getting a sense of any deeper dishonesty, but I do get the impression she’s putting on a front.
4. Wyll gives us the most reason to distrust him, given he asks us to kill the goblin leaders to save the tieflings, then when he has to admits he actually has an ulterior motive of a grudge against goblins, which still turns out not to be entirely honest as his ulterior motive is actually tracking down Mizora. Plus we don’t know what he’s already done at her behest or what finally led him to say no, it feels as though there’s still something to discover about what happened with the goblin raid that led to him agreeing to the pact in the first place, and he seems to have quite a temper and a lack of scruples when it comes to getting what he wants. I think we probably do know who he is by the end of EA, but given his history I’m not confident enough to trust him.
5. Shadowheart rings all sorts of warning bells for me, even more so now she’s been made “nicer”. It depends to some extent how you interact with her, but it feels to me as though she’s trying to worm herself into our good graces by means of flattery, selective honesty, and subtly driving a wedge between our PC and the rest of the party. I’m sure I wouldn’t be as suspicious if she weren’t a Shar worshipper, but given she is it’s hard not to notice that so much of what she says could be taken as manipulation. And it’s to her credit that I’m not 100% sure she’s not honest despite the fact I know she’s a trickery cleric serving a goddess of secrets, and in some playthroughs she’s the one who most genuinely feels as though she’s becoming a friend. I’ll actually be disappointed if it turns out she wasn’t putting on an act.
Now to read what everyone else thinks …
I see it exactly the same way. Shadowheart gives me the most problems (e.g. What is the role of Shar in the story?, How is Shadowheart related to K. Thorm?, What is the weapon from and for?), at the same time she is the one who is physically the most attractive to me and surely will be in the party if it really closes after Act 1. I'm already worried what would happen if I had to do serious story decisions later on. Maybe a cute male halfelf companion comes along in Act 2 and offers an alternative.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, or one that will fly well.... just that it's something I would expect from Larian's calibre of over-the-top character backstories.
I see it exactly the same way. Shadowheart gives me the most problems (e.g. What is the role of Shar in the story?, How is Shadowheart related to K. Thorm?, What is the weapon from and for?), at the same time she is the one who is physically the most attractive to me and surely will be in the party if it really closes after Act 1. I'm already worried what would happen if I had to do serious story decisions later on. Maybe a cute male halfelf companion comes along in Act 2 and offers an alternative.
Aha! Well, thank you for finally saying it.
Let's all at least be honest, that the only reason people *want* to like SH and to *desperately* try to make her be "good"/to "redeem" her, is because she is attractive and she gets to bat those eyelashes at you. To me, Lae'zel is by far the more legitimate companion for receiving the benefit of the doubt or for "redemption" by the PC, and yet nobody cares about any of that with her. Why? Because she is not cute like SH (same argument can be made about Astarion).
the only reason people *want* to like SH and to *desperately* try to make her be "good"/to "redeem" her, is because she is attractive and she gets to bat those eyelashes at you
I’m not going to deny it may be a reason, but I don’t think it’s the only one. I like her, even if I do suspect she’s actually using me, and as a heterosexual woman I’m pretty immune to her looks as a player, even if some of the characters I create may not be.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
the only reason people *want* to like SH and to *desperately* try to make her be "good"/to "redeem" her, is because she is attractive and she gets to bat those eyelashes at you
I’m not going to deny it may be a reason, but I don’t think it’s the only one. I like her, even if I do suspect she’s actually using me, and as a heterosexual woman I’m pretty immune to her looks as a player, even if some of the characters I create may not be.
I am shook. First the Red Queen is green, now she is blue!
But to be fair, my primary Tav (paladin) won't buckle if Shadowheart is truly Sharran through and through. If she throws her lot in with them for real, killing innocents in silence in Act3, it's Sacred weapon time.
However Larian's too clever by half to present us with such simple, if unpleasant, decisions. Nope, there'll be chance to sway her to redemption of a sort - but probably not to something completely wholesome.
And anyway, that Tiefling swordswoman with the black humoured wager is actually more appealing in demeanor. Not to mention Karlach's face has really been beautified.
****
I like Gale's friendship - he's cool, I've got his back, he's got mine. Yep, if he betrays my Tav... Well he won't. Nope, not my buddy Gale. And his fetish for magic items? Well, pretty tame if you ask me. Any anyway, I prefer simple +1 stuff. Easy math and all.
I see it exactly the same way. Shadowheart gives me the most problems (e.g. What is the role of Shar in the story?, How is Shadowheart related to K. Thorm?, What is the weapon from and for?), at the same time she is the one who is physically the most attractive to me and surely will be in the party if it really closes after Act 1. I'm already worried what would happen if I had to do serious story decisions later on. Maybe a cute male halfelf companion comes along in Act 2 and offers an alternative.
Aha! Well, thank you for finally saying it.
Let's all at least be honest, that the only reason people *want* to like SH and to *desperately* try to make her be "good"/to "redeem" her, is because she is attractive and she gets to bat those eyelashes at you. To me, Lae'zel is by far the more legitimate companion for receiving the benefit of the doubt or for "redemption" by the PC, and yet nobody cares about any of that with her. Why? Because she is not cute like SH (same argument can be made about Astarion).
Hmm... With the shortage of good aligned companions, I honestly think some people just got hooked on Gale and Shadowheart.
You can only get Minsc later. Your less evil early game party is Karlach, Gale and SH. (Because Wyll flopped)
Your more evil early game party is Lae'Zel, Astarion and... SH lol. I'd expect Shadowheart to have more fluidity than most just because of that.
One thought went through my head reading these. How trustworthy is our Tav? I mean, it takes minimum of two to talk of trust and I've seen plenty of Youtube play throughs where Tav was everything between honest do-gooder and murder hobo.
Or put another way, if we're able to betray any companion they must have trusted Tav. So which companions can we betray the most? Does it stand to reason they're the most trustworthy?
I started a play through with a Cha-expertise charlatan rogue with the plan to dupe and play everyone off. Couldn't get into it, but might try again.
We can already betray Astarion, and probably in the future once again. I'm not sure how withholding artefacts and Gale bartering his soul (?) counts. Karlach is killable before she's an ally. We might get more options to opt out of defending her. I suppose you can only really make fun of Wyll in Bg after acting sympathetic.
I think Astarion and Karlach are winning at the moment. That's not too hard as de facto escaped slaves, though.
how do we get to betray Astarion?
You can hand him over to Gandrel. Who will knock him out and return him to his enslaver vampire master. Since this is possible at high approval, it can be pretty damn evil.
I wonder what kind of repercussions we'll see if we do that in the main release.
My Name is Regulator and im a Hoarder in the lands of Faern.
how much stuff is to much stuff, because its certainly not enough stuff.
I am shook. First the Red Queen is green, now she is blue!
Yes, I have now been upgraded to global moderator status, so I’ll receive any post reports directly and be able to update user permissions without having to rely on vometia and The Composer. But the less I have to use my new powers the happier I’ll be .
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
I am shook. First the Red Queen is green, now she is blue!
Yes, I have now been upgraded to global moderator status, so I’ll receive any post reports directly and be able to update user permissions without having to rely on vometia and The Composer. But the less I have to use my new powers the happier I’ll be .
Nice, thats pretty cool
My Name is Regulator and im a Hoarder in the lands of Faern.
how much stuff is to much stuff, because its certainly not enough stuff.
I am shook. First the Red Queen is green, now she is blue!
Yes, I have now been upgraded to global moderator status, so I’ll receive any post reports directly and be able to update user permissions without having to rely on vometia and The Composer. But the less I have to use my new powers the happier I’ll be .
I am shook. First the Red Queen is green, now she is blue!
Yes, I have now been upgraded to global moderator status, so I’ll receive any post reports directly and be able to update user permissions without having to rely on vometia and The Composer. But the less I have to use my new powers the happier I’ll be .
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
Let's all at least be honest, that the only reason people *want* to like SH and to *desperately* try to make her be "good"/to "redeem" her, is because she is attractive and she gets to bat those eyelashes at you. To me, Lae'zel is by far the more legitimate companion for receiving the benefit of the doubt or for "redemption" by the PC, and yet nobody cares about any of that with her. Why? Because she is not cute like SH (same argument can be made about Astarion).
Et tu, Kanistha?
Sure. I enjoy SH's model. And all the models except for Gale's now that I think about it.
But. No. Noooo!
I like redemption stories. I submit that there has been trend in video game forums where posters attempt to demonstrate that they are sophisticated connoisseurs of the fantasy genre by expressing their dislike for redemption narratives; usually in the form of by "being bored by them" I have many reasons for rejecting anti-redemption narratives - in part because I'm a prison abolitionist who believes that all humans are capable of redemption but also because I think redemption stories are really entertaining.
Which would be better scene? 1) Luke does a back flip, follows with a roundhouse maneuver and takes off Vader's head with a light sabre; the irredeemable Vader lies at Luke's feet or 2) Luke throws away his light saber and acknowledges Vader as a Jedi and as his father.
Redemption for Darth Vader? Vader? The guy chokes people to death when they annoy him. He cut off the hand of his child. Hell, he dresses in black and his face looks like a skull. He's evil!
But the redemption story was so satisfying.
And while they were both rushed, the redemption stories of Viconia and Sarevok were fun. SH is clearly a replacement for Vicky and her romance is has a similar structure. V turned away from Lloth during a crisis of conscience - she wanted to be good but had no one to support her during her crisis of faith. The good charname sees the light of goodness inside her darkness: Viconia's brutal, abusive personality is a false front, a vestige of culture she's left behind, a dark shell that will disintegrate in the light of kindness the way drow armor disintegrates in the light of the sun. It's a fun story.
SH is likely Patti Hearst. I suspect that she was one of the girls kidnapped from the blighted village and the key to unlocking her memories will be her real name - like the protagonist of planscape: torment. I mean Shadowheart? Who names her kid shadowheart? Can't be a real name.
Of course she's a chosen of Selune with the potential to become a chosen of Shar. Nothing wrong with that. I'm going to enjoy seeing that story unfold.
The answer to who do I trust least is still Gale. Wyll's conflict is clear - he wants to be a hero but he's lazy. He took the easy path getting into the flaming fist and he took the easy path to becoming the blade of frontier. He's an instagram star with a catch phrase, a fame addict and braggart that will be forced to choose between the appearance of goodness and actual goodness; he's the A-train from The Boys. He can fall either way - he may choose the easy path of power and fame offered by his mistress or Tav can convince Wyll to walk the harder path to redemption
Lae'zel is pretty straightforward because she shows no signs of wanting to be redeemed. I think her conflict will not be good or evil but instead "side with Vlakith or side with Gith" But we have good reason to trust her - she made no attempt change sides when her people attacked the party and she took our lead during the conversation with the Gith.
Gale is the least truthworthy.
I disagree with the formidable, articulate Niara with trepidation but disagree I do:
Originally Posted by Niara
It's pretty simple: Gale is a genuinely good person, who has made some bad decisions based on poor emotional choices, and backed up by enough knowledge and power to believe he had more capability than he did. That willingness of his to take personal risks for the sake of extravagant gestures and power moves may recur and may be a problem, but there's nothing deceptive about it.
Originally Posted by Niara
nothing seems disingenuous about Gale's delivery
Gale's delivery is manipulative. It's in the structure of his 'asks'. He butters you up then he ask for your consent in a manipulative manner. He tells you he trusts you but refuses to divulge more info. Uh, no, Gale that's not trust. If you do trust me then you will trust me with the whys of your request; show, don't tell. That's because he doesn't trust at all he just invokes trust to trap you - if you agree you are the good, kind and generous person he just told you are. If you say no you are saying no because you are greedy, covetous and easily seduced by the power of magical artifacts. "Gee I thought you were good. Looks like I misjudged you."
"Hey can I bum a cigarette?"Sure. "Nice to meet a decent person - I asked that guy over there and he would give up one precious ciggy"Some people are like that I guess"Nice know some people are still willing to help others out"It's no big deal "Hey do you think you could spot me a fiver? I can pay you back tomorrow when I get paid. Ask anyone, I'm good for it"
To properly use the foot in the door you are first built up to be even more generous than your actions would merit *but* you are threatened with a loss of that status if you don't agree to the follow up request. If it works you are now primed for even more manipulation because your sense of self-worth is being controlled by another. You can either be an obedient, submissive good girl or trash-tier killjoy. Have I mentioned that I hate men like Gale? I do. I really, really do.
See the video
Originally Posted by Niara
when characters lie, cheat or deceive us, we get insight checks, and here we aren't, so clearly, if our tools are working correctly, they're on the level.
Note that one of the few ways you can rid your party of the Gale virus once you catch it is to use the tadpole. If you use the tadpole and get caught and/or admit it he leaves the party. He'd rather leave than be found out.
Also note that in 3rd edition the shadow weave protected the user from weave based spells so he could have an immunity to detect thoughts. Of course we don't know what the rules for the shadow weave are in 5e - in fact I thought it had been destroyed in 4e, it seems that BG3 is serving as WotC's vehicle to reintroduce it.
The tools Larian gave us are working as intended - the only place I feel railroaded is in the difficulty in getting rid of Gale. But I've learned to skirt around his gate to avoid infection . . .
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