Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General What Companion don't you Trust?

I wonder if there are flags for betrayal.

Supposedly, Astarion's voice acting changes depending on your actions. Not sure if that isn't a myth, though. (Good/evil, not approval)

If it's not, who knows what sorts of flags are in the game.

Yay! Someone actually used my Gale videos! 🤗😝

someone said -- "you can not change one, if the one is unwilling to change himself/herself."

sadly, astarion loves himself the most. others are tools in his view.

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i think no matter the "relationship" is high, even excellent, this doesn't mean their loyalty.

"love" might be a binding to lae'zel or shadowheart, but can not to wyll(betray mizora) or astarion.

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thus, i suppose there will be a binding system via your tadpole, as fate/ stay night system.

if mizora provides a contract for saving her, i will give up wyll immediately.

Nooo, don't join the Mizora simp cult, stevelin! 😫

you get the point to gale's personality!

gale's original intention should be trying to equal mystra.
but i am afraid that gale's final goal will be qualitative change -- "devour mystra, just follow the steps of karsus."
the nature of the "dark magic shard" is devour "magic shard".

if gale doen't choose return the dark magic shard to astral world and try to master it, gale will follow the steps of karsus.

though gale shows the way to return the shard to astral world, but i think this is his secondary consideration.
gale's first consideration is still mastering the power of the shard.

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by the way

i suggest the "origin characters" shadowheart, lae'zel, gale, wyll, astarion, they are just companions, they have their legends, but they are not savior of toril, becuase they have already had their strong personalities.

the savior of toril, only our player character who is the custom character that is created be our players own.

All good ^.^ this is friendly and I think we're going to keep seeing the situation differently, but that's okay. Even if I'm wrong (and I may be, when the full game comes out).... I'll stand by the way I feel about these particular things, and blame Larian for what I will most likely call poor writing <.< >.>

Anyhow... I see his flaws as overconfidence, ego, a bit of social awkwardness, but enough self-centred self-assurance to believe that he's actually smooth and charming all the time. He's more insecure than he wishes to let on, because even after all this time, the blow to his confidence has him over-compensating. The more recent loss of the greater majority of his power has left him in a position where his raw intellect and experience are what he must fall back on, so he Must believe that they are tools that are up to solving any and every problem he has – his own sense of self-worth depends upon it… and there Is a very big self-worth wound lurking beneath his academic bravado. He used to have a healthy level of self worth and self love (along with an unhealthy degree of ego and pride), but right now he doesn't, and it's eating him alive just as much as his shadow orb is. That's my take anyway... none of that is malicious or deceptive, to me.


You say that... but I don't really feel you do that successfully, at least not for me, not yet. I agree that the lack of further dialogue to talk him around without the promise is probably deliberate and an element of his current character, I'm just saying it would look better for him if we cold have that conversation.


No, it's a security blanket for him – it's not about you at all, and it does not give him ANY control. He knows that if he tells you, and he's incorrect about whether you will accept that, and not freak out about it, or do something rash... then the promise itself means nothing; if he's wrong about you, then that promise will not stop the things he's worried about and it won't serve any purpose or hold any value... and if he's right, and you are trustworthy, then the promise is also meaningless because you're not going to freak our or act rashly anyway. It's purely a security blanket for him, because he feels better having that promise there before he tells you about the biggest source of shame and personal failure in his life – and that is exactly what he is telling you about; his biggest failure and his greatest shame, and the way in which it is continuing to make problems for him and everyone around him, and is making him a burden, when he's used to being the one with all the answers and all the power. It's a big thing to admit you need help with, for someone like him.

We'll have to disagree about the escalation – from my perspective, what he tells you from the outset, is that he needs magical artefacts – plural – to feed this hungry chunk of weave, and that if he doesn't keep it fed, continuously, it's going to do some real bad things. He lets us know that the more powerful the artefacts he feeds it, the better. That is where we stand, after he comes to us with his need – and that is exactly where we Stay – no escalation.

My general experience with Gale is usually tossing him the sword as the very first artefact he shows interest in, and then him contentedly telling me that he's good for the rest of the act. And he is. It doesn't come up again, he doesn't ask for more. When you give him an artefact that isn't enough to hold it off long term, he tells you immediately; he tells you that it will keep him safe for a while, but he'll need more soon. This is not new or escalated information – he has already told us that he needs these on the regular.

You said that you cannot get by with just giving him all the other artefacts that show up on his list, and not one of the major ones – that hasn't been my experience, personally. If you regularly feed him lesser artefacts, does he still feel compelled to stake his soul with Raphael over the matter? That hasn't been my personal experience, and I'm sure it wasn't that way a few patches ago.



But he didn't say that... YOU put those words in his mouth; they don't exist except in your interpretation.


Perhaps our perspectives are different here because this has never really affected me, personally – I'm unemployed and live on a disability pension, but I do donate to a few different organisations, to the limit of my capabilities and to the extent I want to; there are several others I support without giving money to, and I juggle a bit depending on my capability and breathing room. When they ask if I can donate an extra $5 to their cause, or if I could be persuaded to to make an ongoing sponsorship payment, I tell them that no, I can't. That's all there is to it; my self worth is not called into question by this. I know that I'm doing as much as I can, or as much as I feel I wish to – nothing they say on the other end has any impact on that, for me.


I'm curious about this... I watched the section from 26-29, where he's told you that he needs to eat powerful weave strands, by way of artefacts, and you're questioning him on the topic. Nowhere during that did I feel him calling into question my value or self-worth as a person, or casting shade on my goodness as a person – it was just a question and answer session where he gave honest, but reticent and short answers about his condition and his needs. When you tell him you're not ready to give up the one he identified, he says “Okay, that's fine – but please do keep on the look out for others; it will save my life, and faerun is full of them – though they're usually protected (again; up front telling you that there will be danger, most likely, in trying to acquire more, not escalating to that risk after the fact). What part of this exchange, to your perspective, is him casting shade on your status as a good person?

He denotes the value points that they would otherwise hold for him – that they are artefacts of power, history and magic – when conveying that he understands that what he is asking of you is a lot – he's not accusing you of being power-seduced at all... again, I feel that's you putting that interpretation there where it simply does not exist at all.


Well, you can also sacrifice him to Booaal. I only regret that you cannot whisper to him that it's a clever ploy since they'll kill him, then all die in his body's necrotic aura, and then you'll rez him after – and ask him to trust you.



Yes – If he runs out of options, and no-one is willing to help him, he assesses what his choices are, and he chooses – unsurprisingly to me – the one that endangers ONLY himself, and his immortal soul, and no-one else.

He does not vindictively let himself blow up and take everyone with him, he does not steal artefacts from you and consume them on the sly, and he does not tear off into the wilds on the blind hope of finding one himself, without any leads or reliable information indicating that he will be able to in time. No... he does the thing he clearly did not Want to do as a first choice, now because it is his only safe contingency plan left... he stakes his own soul, and no-one else's, with Raphael to help his problem.

If anything, this paints him in a better, if more desperate light, than any other choice. What would you, as a good and honest person, do in his position: you've got a ticking clock that will devastate a huge area and kill countless people, your companions have in their possession, but have refused you the tools you need to keep this danger at bay, and now you can feel your time is running dangerously low. Your goddess is not listening, your normal magical powers are reduced, and you're a long way from a major magical hub, with no way to get to one quickly. You know quite a lot about fiends and their interactions, and you know how devil contracts work, and you know one is watching you particularly right now; you don't know if you can beat one at its own game, but you know it's possible for the clever, and you believe you are very clever. What do you do? Clock's ticking. What does a good person, who cares about the lives, souls and rights of others, do, here?


As a player, I still do think you're putting something there that doesn't exist – and if it did exist, we should get the same tools checking it like we do for other deceptive followers when they deceive or mislead us.

On the subject of Mystra...


What he did in folly, was what caused her to abandon him almost completely. What he is doing may be antithetical to what he should be doing in her name... but what would you have him do instead? What option does he have, to not do that? It's not a choice that he can make, so it's also not something we can hold against him.


Gale does these things, right now, in act one. He shows a deep love and fascination with all things magical, at almost all times, he encourages others to try and to experience magic, and he is always happy to educate, explain and teach any who show an interest. He does not tell the barbarian “Oh it's complex magic, you wouldn't understand” - he teaches you what he is doing, gives you the correct terminology to talk about it, and encourages your interest in it if you show any at all.

He also shows us that he has taken the time to develop new spells – and just look at the spell he created! The one he shows us is one that allows other people, without a natural connection to the weave, to feel and experience it directly! That is what he chose to create. It's not a spell that exists in any textbook, and it's beautiful, yet benign; it's art. Love of magic and the eagerness to share that love of it with others positively oozes from his pores at every turn.

It could be said that he oversteps the line of pride, and uses magic for minor and frivolous things, but I don't really hold that against him, personally – though if he was really bad at that in his heyday, that may have been what led Mystra to grow bored of him and move on.

Right now, he is the unwitting gatekeeper of something destructive, and he feeds that thing to prevent it being more destructive... but he is not the one destroying magic. He is responsible for it, and he's paying a heavy toll for his foolishness and his pride.

i just show the importance of the soul contract.

you will find the relationship only make you popular, but when the time of crisis is coming, only a few people can prove their true heart worth of the relationship.

this is why asmodeus can rule the lords of the nine, and is still standing to against infinite layers of the abyss.

with a solid soul contract, mizora will be your true ally in your most difficult time.

gale has the autonomy to decide whether absorbing the "dark magic shard" or not.
gale decides to absorb the dark power that is just his ambition, you shoul read follow description :

i do agree your argument.
your insight sees through gale. you explain why mystra give up gale.

Thank you for making them!


Agreed - it's a friendly exchange Like you I have many critiques of Larian but I've been pretty pleased by the quality of the writing.

We'll know once the game comes out.


True enough - that my interpretation. Perhaps our differences in interpretation spring from this source: I buy his arrogance and bravado but don't I buy his awkwardness. The 'awkwardness' strikes me as a mask for something more sinister.


In the end, neither is mine. But I feel the tug and it annoys me. And I've just spent lots of time thinking about how humans manipulate each other so I'm primed to pick on that.




It's in the framing itself. He just cooked dinner - when people give you things or do things for you feel like reciprocating. You are putatively having this discussion because he sees you as good person. You helped that child, etc and etc. But that's false. The fact that he asks you after you say no makes it clear he could be having this conversation with anyone (including Raphel if he thought he could outsmart him). You are kindly disposed towards him and see the secured promise as security blanket whereas I'm not kindly disposed and see it as a sign of his manipulative nature. Again, he would make the ask of anyone but he tells you he chose to provisionally "trust" you because of your good nature because that's the best way to manipulate someone who wants to think of themselves as good.

it was just a question and answer session where he gave honest, but reticent and short answers about his condition and his needs

"wouldn't want to make you into a oathbreaker"

"I know the allure . . ."

Once again - we'll see but I rather suspect that his answers are not truthful. I think he went looking for the shadow weave and found it - but found out that Shar is not a kind mistress.

And it does comes back to my attitude towards Gale. Where you see reticence I see artifice - he's peeling the veils away slowly to keep us interested. Granted I am making inferences from vocal tone, body language and facial expression - which, while they were modeled by a real actor, it's possible that I'm being influenced by the uncanny nature of the experience.




The threat to status comes earlier and later in the extraction of the promise (a good girl would blindly agree) and the "oathbreaker line"


But the threat to status just a bit later - the only reason you would say no is that you want to keep an item for it's power.




1) he doesn't say for him - that would be less manipulative if he did. He says he knows the allure of the objects.
2) he's telling you why you might not agree - because you want to hold onto power. Not, say, I don't want to slaughter the grove. Or destroy one of Selune's sacred objects or destroy one of Tyr's holy artifacts

Hello? Gale? Being seduced by power is your thing - stop projecting thankyouverymuch.

Perhaps if we put it in a modern form you could see it through my eyes?


"My cancer can only be cured if you burn famous works of art and allow me to swallow the ashes. I understand why you wouldn't want burn the Mona Lisa - believe me, I know how much money you could get for that painting on the black market. And understand the prestige that come from in owning such an item. Besides, stealing it could be quite dangerous. "

Wait - if I say "no" I'm doing so because i want to make money or gain prestige!? What kind of person chooses to let someone die of cancer for the sake of money or prestige?

Notably Gale only refers to their value and power and not " power, history and magic " (timestamp 27:25) - again, the addition of "history" would be considerably less manipulative. [1]



Now you're trying to manipulate me into taking him again



The option that would do that would be die in the Anauroch desert away from everyone. Or to die inside a troll mound or some other monster maker. Once's he belongs the Raphel he will endanger many others.


Try to make it as far away from people as possible. And hope that I wouldn't be so self deceived to think that selling my soul to a devil wouldn't the first of many evil acts committed at the behest of my new master. Use a fly spell to get into the air? Sell every thing I own for a teleport scroll? Gale's decision to get anywhere near a city is incredibly selfish.

I do think the expressions of love Gale has for Mystra are interesting. But I don't think that they are indications that he's still acting like a good a chosen, they strike more like the man mourning the end of a relationship with the wife he cheated on. The mystra weave scene it a bit like a scene where 21st century gale is showing the new girlfriend the photos of his children. It gives me the creeps - it strikes me like a "you would look lovely in one her dresses" scene.

So very, very creepy - which is to say I think it's well written. Sorry, not sorry.


thanks for detailed reply


[1] my silly example also requires that you believe that famous painting dust can cure my condition even though I won't tell you why

This is a very interesting thread, I hope I'll have more time at the weekend to read everything I have missed.

To Gale, and also the rest partly, a lot of interactions which may seem dubious come from the dubious game mechanic of cRPGs. Why Gale for example has to ask for the use of the magical artifacts? He fought for and found the artifacts to the same amount as the player. Why does he not just use an artifact he found? He doesn't even do if I put it into his inventory. He cannot because only we make decisions.

In the real world it wouldn't be clear at all that our player char would be the big boss and the others were puppets. I don't want to be the boss, I want to roleplay a more passive char, but I cannot. Gale has to convince me, so he (the game) has to give us reasons to allow it or not, which wouldn't necessarily be there in reality. Nobody of the companions seems to be a weak minded person who would automatically buckle to our "hero". In a real group maybe there would be a vote? Of course, if the game would give the companions equal rights and e.g. decide matters randomly, there would be an uproar from the players, and rightly so, because we want some control (play Mount and Blade Bannerlord and suffer from the AI decisions, to compare). But the inequality between "Tav" and the rest may explain some behaviour.

So from the possibilities for betrayal the most dangerous and least trustworthy individual around is the player char. Take Wyll, as Spike offered him information about Mizora if Wyll tortered the prisoner, Wyll denied (which makes him the contrary of "selfish and not reliable" to me), but the player could overrule him and torture and in this way betray Wyll's convictions. If the player chose to torture, I would leave him as companion, but the poor companion guys/gals at most have the ability to agree/disagree (as far as I'm aware, maybe there will be more important decisison to be made and companions can leave, but I doubt it).

this is right, some players have already asked the question, but i think there is no time to do change?


i think only if your player character's alignment is "evil chaos" or "evil neutral", this will happen.
this is, if you choose the alignment of the absolute(help gobiln camp), you will be the most dangerous and least trustworthy amount your companions.

but if you choose the dark evil way, you ought to get "penalty points", enough "penalty points" will lead you to multiple unhappy ending.

otherwise, the trust issue is in your companions.

Not quite. If Wyll is alone, he will use torture without encouragement. He only olds back when someone else is present

It's fascinating to see how far others read into things, honestly. The idea that these details may not even have an objective 'truth' at all, and may be entirely retroactively malleable based on our actions and decisions isn't something that I had considered myself.. and yet it's something that I've seen time and time again in actual D&D games with skilled DMs that tailor events around players in seamless ways. It's a distinct possibility, I'm just not sure I'm ready to give Larian that much credit...

I wrote a reply to your comments, KR, but when I re-read it I realised I had written in a very harsh tone, and it's pretty late here, so I'll come back to this late and see if I can't vet my wording to be more friendly ^.^

Honestly, this is my take as well. I don't believe Larian's writers have a clue about any of these nuances or have any knowledge of longstanding FR lore. Nor do they care. As I've repeatedly said from the beginning, for me Larian's writers are just plain awful, and the writing is the biggest weakness of BG3.

Well, I think I still trust Gale most of the companions but my confidence that I’m right to do so has certainly been shaken by the impressions and insights offered by others here! I will now be braced for the possibility that at least in some playthroughs it turns out that there’s more to the story of why Mystra dumped him or what his actual motivations or intentions were with respect to the stolen Weave than he’s telling us, which I previously wouldn’t have been .

The other thing that this thread has got me thinking about is whether any of the companions could turn out to have been allied with our enemies from the start, which isn’t unprecedented in Baldur’s Gate games. Of course, that might depend on who we decide to ally with or fight against, but while I feel that any of the companions could potentially turn against us depending on our choices, I’m not getting the sense that any of them is actually knowingly a double agent from the start.

Shadowheart seems the most likely candidate for an enemy agent, but if she is I think she doesn’t know it, and I can’t quite make sense of why the Absolute would give the order to kill whoever has “the weapon” rather than capture them if Shadowheart’s mission to steal it from the gith was ultimately for the cult and they could simply restore her memory. Plus it seems legit that like us her tadpole has just been inserted as she knows about it unlike other cultists. Though thinking more about it, isn’t there something different about her condition when everyone else gets ill after a few tadpole uses?

In fact, the more I think about it the less I understand what’s going on with Shadowheart and the nautiloid. I initially assumed that it was heading to Moonrise Towers and was kidnapping people for the cult of the Absolute, but then why are there a number of sacrificed Absolute cultists on it? I suppose it’s possible that part of the reason for setting up the cult, if the mindflayers are behind it, might be to gain fodder for sacrifice. But we find them in the same room as Shadowheart. Is she connected with them? She says the rest of her mission were killed, was that elsewhere or might that be them? And, if so, are the people wearing the sign of the Absolute on the ship real cultists or are they disguised Sharrans? Or is Shar also connected with the cult? Where was Shadowheart brought onto the nautiloid, anyway? Was she coincidentally kidnapped while escaping from her heist, or was the nautiloid actually part of it and her getaway vehicle but she’s somehow been double-crossed or just restrained by the mindflayers as she doesn’t actually know she’s working with them?

I have so many more questions, but I’ll stop there! I’ll bet folk here have some interesting theories, or have picked up on stuff I’ve missed.

Thanks. Reading over what I read last night I realize that my tone could have better. I pushed send just before I went to bend and I probably should edited for tone. I appreciate you taking the efforts!

Very interesting. Here's some wild speculation - Shadowheart's sphere is needed for a ritual that would transform SH into a chosen.

So we have three big powers who want the artifact - the absolute, Shar and Vlaakith. And I don't know if Shar wants the dead three to thrive or not. She allied with Cyric against Mystra so that would suggest no, she'd rather see Cyric hold the portfolios the absolute are trying to regain, but Shar's allegiances shift so 🤷

I don't want to sound like an uncritical booster - I'm not. But my critique has never been of the writing - it's more the Faerun 'feel' and the game mechanics. It think it's possible to say "no, badgers cannot teleport across pits" and still enjoy the writing. It's possible to say "to feel like a true sequel we need to be able to form an entirely good-aligned party" and still appreciate what the authors have put forward so far.

I don't think the ceo understands Faerun - but one of the writers might. Gale is using the shadow weave for it's intended purpose - to destroy Mystra's creations. Which give me some hope for BG3 - I really liked the shadow weave and I'm glad it has returned.