Okay, fresh morning, fresh eyes, more friendly, go!
I could understand this as reasonable, if not for the way you based it on something that you literally made up and inserted yourself. The fact that you took a line, added in a completely non-present blame-for-killing-many-people, that didn't exist in any way, and then cast the line as sinister and manipulative based on that thing that you literally invented and put there yourself... to be honest that feels manipulative and deceptive, KR ^.^ Said in good humour, but no less serious.
Sorry if I'm being daft but what are you referring to? I don't believe I've made anything up - even if I've speculated and interpreted things differently than you do i've not invented anything out of whole cloth. Sincere point of clarification - to what are you referring? Perhaps a quote got cut?
Thanks for keeping the tone friendly. I'm tempted to make a cat face but that would feel like taking your thing so I will smile
On killing people. If he decides to search for a cure in Baldurs gate instead of taking himself out somewhere remote and/or populated by evil monsters he's guilty of two 'sins':
a) he's putting the lives of others in danger because he could blow to others up b) if he does survive he's committing a sin against Mystra
Absurd, silly, 21st first century example: you wake up in airport. Some evil person has put a tactical-nuke suicide vest on you that will explode if tampered with. Because you are expert in such matters you know bomb is big enough to take out all of NYC. Timer is set for 3 days. Two flights are leaving immediately. Do you:
a) buy a ticket to NYC hoping to the meet with the best possible bomb experts?
b) buy a ticket to the south pole?
Gale is being selfish.
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Please take a step back and look at what you did there, and how far you framed that situation up to match your narrative when it didn't actually fit it.
Again, I sincerely don't know which scenario you are referring to. I don't believe I am guilty of doing such.
But let me explain why I don't believe his story.
One of the things that doesn't add up is Mystra cutting off contact for no reason at all. Who knows what reincarnated Mystra is like but that doesn't sound like either rule bound Mystra #1 or compassionate, loving Midnight/Mystra #2
Mystra does not ghost her lovers .
But we do know that using the Shadow Weave cuts you off from the main weave. The more you use the shadow weave the weaker your connection. My speculation? My theory?
He was experimenting with the shadow weave before he found the book with the shadow mythalar in it. That's why he's divorced from Mystra - he was unfaithful to his ex.
Originally Posted by Killerabbit
Note how quick he is to threaten your self conception as a good person (timestamp 26:17)
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That's Normal. Normal sensible people do that, every day, and it's entirely mundane.
So our attitudes are quite different towards such things. Yes people manipulate each other every day in all sorts of ways. That's never a good thing but sometimes we look past it. It's entirely fair to offended with salesman like manipulation.
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You don't ask someone for help moving boxes when they just got home from stocking a warehouse all day and are exhausted – that's dumb and socially unaware.
That's not an example of salesman like manipulation, that's an example of tact and even an example of compassion. They're tired it's just nice not to burden them with a request at this time.
If, on the other hand, KillerRabbit lets Bob get a full nights sleep, makes Bob their favorite breakfast, make sure Bob knows that KR made an old family recipe from scratch, then KR told Bob that were going to ask for a favor but first extracted a promise to not ask for any details about the favor then KillerRabbit is acting like a manipulative ass.
And I submit that my example is closer to Gale's behavior than your own.
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If I had a group of travelling companions, and one of them looked at me like I was an insect, one of them looked at me like I was meat, one of them can't even see me because she's too busy trying to look down her nose at me while simultaneously holding it up in the air,
I am literally laughing out loud. Brilliant!
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and one of them seems to be a more or less upstanding person . . .
I see Gale more like an obedience expert deciding which puppy will be the easiest to train. As you've said, you identify with him but I don't think you and Gale are anything alike. I see Gale as Machiavellian manipulator. You seem earnest, honest and good
And believe me - I am very familiar with the habits of homo academicus. You would be a great prof - Gale would be dismissed for dating his students.
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"wouldn't want to make you into a oathbreaker"
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Once again, and off-handed joke said with no weight and a chuckle...
Mmm. Color me unconvinced - I saw something quite different.
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It feels like you're being disingenuous with the facts, I'd even say, just to make them match your stance, when they don't.
Hopefully we can leave this with a smile? And return to where you opened your previous post that we just have very different interpretations? Yes, I cannot stand him but I don't believe that I being disingenuous. Not in the slightest. Seriously.
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"I know the allure . . ."
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Yes... he's projecting. That's what I was implying; in trying to convey that he is aware that he's asking a big thing of you, he projects the values that he, personally, finds in such things, and why the action would be a sacrifice for him. That's not malicious or evil – inept, perhaps, but not manipulation, especially if it's not true of us. It would be great if we could correct him on why we're not eager to give him the items, and it would be a chance for more character building, which I would welcome, but in terms of examining Gale's character it's irrelevant.
He's also using telling us why we might object and he's so doing deliberately and strategically.
I'd had many jobs in my life and a number of them involved manipulation. I was a canvasser for an environmental organization where I learned how to use the foot in the door technique. Great organization, terrible work. I was also a server where I learned the art of "provide the reason" and "provide the answer". Provide the answer was one my first lessons as a server - you never, never ask open ended questions when checking on a table. "How are things over here"? is wrong. "How are things over here-good?" is the right way to manipulate customers into being happy. It's easier for them to repeat "good" than stop and think about why they might be unhappy. Believe me I learned this the hard way. It's a realtively benign form of manipulation - you suggest they are happy and, more often than not, people agree that they are. But it's still manipulation. "Provide the reason" - when someone is unhappy a good server suggest a reason that is easy to fix. "you don't like it? Not enough sauce perhaps?" Gale is "providing the reason" - power. We will not help him and others because we want power.
Boy we sound like jerks . . .
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Bear in mind, as well, the comment about the allure and power of the artefacts only comes directly in relation to artefacts you already have – you've already Stolen the idol from the grove.
That's not been true in my playthroughs - he asks for idol just because we passed by it. In my experience the benched Gale made dinner, tried to extract a promise, I told him no and he said something manipulative. He came to me few days later and told me anyway. I said yes but that point I didn't have any blue artifacts in my inventory. Next rest he mentioned that the idol was the sort of object he would looking for and, laughingly, claimed he wasn't actually asking for it.
I know my point would be better supported I could find that dialogue on you tube but I can't seem to find it.
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Why do the vast majority of players not give him the sword of Tyr? Because They Want To Use It.
Not my toons - neither my Mystra worshiping wizard nor my Cleric of Selune wants to destroy magic items, especially not holy objects.
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Who said anything about slaughtering a grove? No-one – only you said that. That's you, inserting the supposition of violent death (Again!) where it was not mentioned or even implied.
Have you tried to steal the idol? It's not easy without save scumming or using engine exploits. It is really, really easy to make the entire grove attack you. Which they almost did when you first arrived. And it's one hell of a heist - the druids are in a circle staring right at it! I stand by my characterization
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Why do you contort yourself so? Take a step beck and look at the rings you're twisting yourself into to make this fit the person you feel like he is... the simpler answer is that you are projecting the idea and motives of a character onto him that simply is not there... and that is why you have to twist so much to make the things fit when they don't.
That's not entirely wrong - as I've said I do think about manipulation often and I've had jobs where I manipulated people; I used to worry that those jobs would turn me into a Gale, which is why I had to quit. So there is an element of "takes one to know one" but I think it's recognition not projection. I prefer your projections - I just think you've found the wrong canvas
And I truly believe that my position requires fewer contortions than yours
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And yet... unlike when Wyll bullshits at us, we are not presented even a single insight check at any point to discern whether he is being genuine or not... One of these is a sensible action, the other is the action of a zealot uninterested in the actual truth.
Note that you get checks to see that Wyll's eye is a sending stone but his "what? drow? here? " conversation is presented as comic relief. The lie is so obvious and so bad the player even the dimmest barbarian recognizes it as a lie.
I may regret saying this but I wonder how much of our differences of interpretation come down to being okay with being manipulated? Because if someone makes me dinner and then tries to extract a promise while I still have the flavor on my tongue . . . my first instinct is . . . not kind.
I think we're supposed to see the manipulation with dinner just like we're supposed to spot the lie when Wyll is talking to his patron - it's not like we, the players, actually have the flavor of venison on our tongue. I think we're supposed to think "Sure Gale, I see you pulling the strings - now let's see how my toon feels about that"
We roll our eyes when Wyll says that he's just practicing his battle cries and we're supposed to roll our eyes when gale asks us how he liked his cooking.
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I think he went looking for the shadow weave and found it - but found out that Shar is not a kind mistress.
[quote-Niara]Based onnnn...? [/quote]
See above ^
And, as I said previously - for someone like him - archmage and chosen - the shadow weave is the only thing that could provide him more power (assuming the shadow weave allows level 12 spells - which it may or may not)
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Soul deals with devils come due upon death, and they generally contain no other requisites or contingencies levied upon the individual to act in certain ways, or grant the devil any right to command or instruct that individual – such caveats create the potential for invalidation, and they don't need to put them in if they're getting your soul anyway. They generally go the other way, actually, and give nothing but benefits for your mortal life, since they are trying to sell the target on the deal. Soul deals come due when you die, and Gale would definitely have negotiated as best he could to get as favourable a contract as he could, to allow him as much room as he could to wiggle out of it. I'm not saying he'd have done well, or succeeded, but he'd definitely have tried his best and fought for every inch of freedom in life as he could get, and as much boon as he could get out of it in that time, to boot.
Granted. You have a good point - were we dealing with a standard contract but "please do something now I'm about to explode" is not a strong negotiating position - if I were DM I wouldn't just go for one of the standard contract forms mentioned in Descent into Avernus. And remember that when Gale talks about the contract he mentions that we needn't settle for a standard contract because Raphel likely wants the tadpole for some reason. If Gale can suggest deviating from the standard contact it suggests that Raphel can as well.
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Beyond that... It sounds to me like your 'good person' solution is “I'd give up and die”.
No my solution is that a good person would die like Spock did - Gale needs to come to the conclusion "better than I die than that thousands die". "Giving up" suggests weakness - I'm suggesting a solution that requires strength on Gale's part - a strength he claims to have but doesn't display.
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- Flying into the air? When you don't know exactly when you will explode, and don't know how great a detonation it may be except that it would be enough to level a city or more, and fly only lasts a few minutes? No, that's pretty darn stupid and ineffective too.
I maintain it's better than finding an inn with soft sheets in one the largest cities on the continent.
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- Sell your possessions for a teleport scroll? From whom are you buying this powerful spell scroll that is the exclusive domain of highly powerful spellcasters... here in the middle of the wilderness and a string of small fishing villages, townships and outposts? That's not happening. And are your possessions and belongings valuable enough to buy a spell scroll (7th level, very rare) that might sell for up to 100,000 gold?
And let's remember how our poor victim responds when you finally give him the object that will last him until Baldur's gate - that is to say when he is surrounded by 1,000s of people. Does he think about how many lives he can save? No. Does he worry that he won't find a solution in time to assure the safety of all Baldurians? No, instead he waxes lyrical about the allure of soft beds, scented baths, music and good food. Like good people do.
Concerns about other people dying are reserved for those moments when he's asking for an object or extracting a promise - they're conspicuously absent from his mind when he feels safe and secure. You, the object of his manipulations, are to expected to carry a weight he does not.
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Have you got any other 'solutions'? Any other options? What does a good person do? So far you're zero for three, plus one that is doing exactly what you are trying to call Gale selfish for doing – going somewhere where you can acquire more resources to solve your problem.
We don't know the answer to this but the implication is that he's been living with this condition for some time. Sounds like he should have teleported to the desert under his own power when he was still an archmage (and chances are pretty good that he found that book in the desert anyway so he should have done it then) I'm guessing he had a ticket Antarctica and exchanged it for a ticket to NYC.
I had forgotten about the plane shift, thanks! Such is the problem with leaving Gale at his gate. Agreed - that would be optimal. And the Gith can plane shift so there might a solution there - we'll see if Gale is willing to be like Spock.
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they strike more like the man mourning the end of a relationship with the wife he cheated on.
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Once again, I'd like to point out that you are making a denigrating and back-handed attack on his character status; you're doing the exact thing you're accusing him of doing. “Wife he cheated on”?
So not apologizing for that one Said jokingly but also not.
While Mystra is poly and her chosen are her lovers I do think an affair with Shar would qualify as infidelity . . .
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“Lover that got bored and dumped him” would be more honest – “and then publicly roasted him on all her socials for his failed attempt to recapture her interest” could be added.
Heresy! You would rather besmirch the name of holy Mystra?! All for the sake of one of the creepiest NPCs in the history of gaming?! Call the inquisitors! (said in good humor of course)
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But yes – the ~three scenes that deal with Mystra and his spurning by her all have that jilted lover mourning vibe, no arguments there, they do. However... we were not talking about his love of Mystra – we were talking about his attitudes towards loving magic, sharing it, teaching it, and spreading it to others – all of which, I pointed out, he is actively doing at any opportunity. As much as he talks the talk about Mystra and magic being one and the same, there's a fairly clear delineation between the two, even within Gale himself; the scenes that have Mystra come into play all have that vibe, definitely, and it's a bit awkward... but all the rest are just simply the image of a boy who has loved all things magic and magic related, and has always and continues to be enthusiastic about it.[/quote/
The ambiguity is true to the lore - which is why I do think there are writers at Larian who are familiar with the lore. Why they don't let those writers wear the armor and speak during the panels . . . but I digress.
The chosen are lovers and it's implied that one of the reasons Midnight was chosen to become Mystra is that she loved freely but committed to no one. (at least that's my interpretation - I don't know why else Greenwood decides to tells us about Midnight's sexual history) [quote] The weave scene is even more awkward if you're both wizards and both in nothing but your underwear. If you're a halfling, you spend a goodly number of transitional shots with a moderate closeup on his groin. I've been there.
Ha! That image will stay with me
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I know people like Gale - to a certain extent I Am people like Gale . . .
You're not Or, rather, you are like the Gale you imagine Gale to be but not at all like the Gale I see.
I also know academics. Indeed I've lived my entire life surrounded by them. And to show that I can be as arrogant as Gale himself - my "creepy prof radar" has a 100% success rate. Every time I've said: "that new prof is going to be facing sexual harassment charges within 3 years" I've been right. Every single time. You aren't like Gale and that's a good thing.
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Okay, I am sorry if any of that came across as harsh, and I promise it's not intended to be fighty or fractious... The first and second drafts of this were... sleep-deprived and aggressive. I sincerely hope that this reads a bit better!
Likewise.
I know we are just words and avatars to each other but I do always enjoy reading your posts - I would authentically feel sad if this exchange led to any tension between us. I'm having fun. If you are not please say so and we'll end this now on good terms.
(sometimes I'm a bit Lae'zel I need to people to be very explicit and say things like "let's stop")
