Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General What Companion don't you Trust?

The things I'm mentioning you inventing out of the ether and then tarring Gale with are the places where you credited him with lines he didn't say and implications which you made up.

Here:
and Here:
Twice, you have attempted to introduce the idea of murder and death as the thing that Gale's request is compelling you to do, as part of characterising his requests as manipulative and Machiavellian. Both times, you inserted the supposition of death and murder of innocents into dialogue lines that did not contain any such reference, hint or suggestion, at all, and went on with your comment in a way that attempted to associate Gale's request or comment with that concept of murder and death of innocents. I believe part of what you were saying there was that he was implying that you condoned or would not stand against those things, if you didn't do as he asked, which is ridiculously unfair, since you were the one who introduced those concepts into the narrative yourself.

Gale never says, hints, suggests, implies or even remotely indicates in any way that you will have responsibility for any deaths if you don't do what he says (He's unlikely to ever do so, because doing so would imply that he is not the master of his own fate - something he would never willingly accept). Nor does getting him the item he asks for have anything at all to do with death or killing people, or need to in any way. Stealing the Idol, for example, is incredibly easy, safe and risk free, and doesn't require you to cause or incite any violence or death at all... Just don't grab it when it's busy being the central focus of an important ritual that the entire grove is on high alert about. Pick it up After the ritual issue is dealt with, and it's not being watched by a dozen pairs of eyes, and, once Khagga isn't making it important anymore, suddenly no-one actually cares – Some will notice it missing, and comment that the idol seems to have gone missing, after all that fuss, then shrug and walk away.

On multiple occasions, he indicates that he is against allowing the deaths of innocents, even if it involves danger to himself – which is actually more than can be said of would-be-hero Wyll.

Regarding the Idol and Gale's comments; I've never had him comment about the allure of such items except, explicitly in the circumstance where he is asking you for an item that you have, and you have the option of telling him you're not ready to part with it. Other lines at other junctures, certainly, but that particular line, only ever in that specific circumstance – that is my experience at least.

I'd also like to note that you consider Gale's reaction about not asking you to steal it to be a manipulation... Counter point: Gale is correct, and he didn't ask you to steal it. The player character is the one who invoked the idea of stealing it, and it is the player character's line that is casting Gale in a negative light, implying that he proposed theft when he literally did not. Gale is then forced to defend himself to that accusation – noting that he did not ask you to steal it at all. If the player had instead asked “How should I get it?” and Gale had suggested stealing it, I'd be on board with you, but he didn't. I could even say that it is the player character that is being manipulative and unfair towards Gale in that circumstance. The player could negotiate to acquire the idol from the druids, discuss trading it from them either for something else they need or some other service, or explain their need and talk with them about any other artefacts of that calibre that they may know about that could be put towards this need without inconveniencing anyone. We could do any of those things and I'm sure Gale would be very appreciative of it... but no, our Character jumped straight to Theft, and back-handed accused Gale of jumping to that point as well, when he literally did not.

And... it looks as though you bought into that manipulation by the player character, hook and all, because you accepted the player's characterisation of Gale as suggesting theft... or so it seems.


No, he didn't. He tells you that he didn't ask you to steal it. Important difference. He certainly wants it, or something like it... but he corrected the player character's accusation that he has asked them to steal it... because he didn't.

==


So, my understanding of the situation here – and I'll admit I'm hazy, so if you've got better quotes/videos etc that we can both look at that might help, but... My understanding was that Mystra didn't ghost him right away... what happened was that she grew more distant and not as immediately on-call as direct lovers. Not like he'd done anything wrong, just that she wasn't making the same time for him she used to, and eventually was not really making direct one-on-one time for him any more at all. He was still her chosen, and still in her good books, but he wasn't enjoying the heady closeness that he'd initially had when he was a fresh and new prodigy for her. Gale couldn't accept this, however (which is where I do find a bit of fault in him).

In trying to recapture her attention, he made his big play – and it was in that moment that he was cut off from her for more fundamentally, and fully – it was then that she 'ghosted' him. And that happened, I think it's safe to say, because that was the moment that he was bonded in essence to that chunk of shadow weave. That was such a sudden shift, that I feel it almost points more clearly to him not having had any contact with shadow weave before that at all.

That's my understanding of events... Mystra takes many lovers, and she loves freely, and without commitment. That means that you often take new lovers, and it means you often move on from old ones; there is no shame or fault or recrimination in any of that. Why she moved on from him doesn't even need a reason or justification, because unless your name is Elminster, it's going to happen sooner or later anyway. (Let's... not get into the whole “Gale is Elminster” theory... it's a thing, apparently!)

Gale did not 'Cheat on' Mystra, in that sense, unless you presume, and I'll say it again – against all evidence to the contrary that the game currently provides us – that he knew that what he was trying to access was shadow weave, not just a chunk of the first weave that had been cut off as he tells us, and that, knowing that, he took it into himself willingly. All the evidence we have points to these things not being correct; we get no insight check on his story-telling of the matter, and our look into his mind confirms that the shadow weave attacked him violently and suddenly when he found it. So, he only 'cheated' if you are actively ignoring the evidence we have, and are constructing a completely different story of your own creation, which has no evidence to support it.

Regardless of this... Gale, could not accept that he was 'moved on from', and it drove him to an action which cost him even more; that was his folly, and the poetic tragedy of it is that the burden levied upon him forces him to be the gate-keeper of a thing that destroys the very things he has loved and devoted himself to his whole life sharing and spreading... and he must feed it to survive.

==

Speaking of surviving... I guess that brings us to the “options” part of the topic!

Regarding the options – I'd like it if you acknowledged that one of your own suggestions, that you made – to buy a teleport scroll – is synonymous with doing the exact thing that Gale is trying to do, and which you are condemning him for trying to do. You suggested doing the exact same thing, as a solution that a good person might do, and he's doing it, and you're condemning him for it. Please acknowledge this, or amend or retract your suggestion. I am sorry to be so snippy about that – it just bugged me.

For the rest, in terms of his actions and choices.... Unfortunately from my perspective, all your comments regarding options and actions add up to is: “Yes, giving up and dying/committing 'noble' suicide is the only acceptable course of action!”

This means that Gale's premise alone – completely irrespective of anything to do with his personality – prevents you from Ever giving him a fair shot or thinking of him fairly, by definition... or so it seems. Or, to use your own modern analogy... the fact that Gale has (explosive)cancer, and isn't choosing to terminate his own life immediately because of that fact, makes him a bad person, on your metric. If I'm mistaken please correct me... because that isn't fair.

To be clear:


I buy the ticket to NYC. 100% that's what I do... and it's what any sane and rational person would do. If, after 2 days, I have no solution and no hope in sight of finding one, then I'll get out of the city and ensure that no-one else suffers for my failure to find a solution (not before giving as much information as I can about my circumstance to the authorities, of course, so that the mad bomber can be caught before they do this again), but as long as I have time and the ability to use that time, then I'm going to use every possible resource at my disposal to seek a better solution than giving up and dying.

Giving up and dying is not strength, and there isn't really any such thing as a noble sacrifice – just a person who has accepted death because they've given up on looking for a better solution. Sometimes there isn't a better solution, that's true – but that's no excuse to stop looking for one, because there usually is. I may have a personal and biased outlook on this, and I accept that, but it's where I stand. By all means, if I seem harsh here, drop me a message, as it's not something that I'll discuss in this thread.


I do not. Seeking answers while you have the time and capability to seek them is a far better and more morally sound course of action than shrugging your shoulders and saying “Well, I guess I'll die then.”


Why would talking about 'saving people' make any sense at all when the conversation is about your ability to find a solution to your problem? It wouldn't make sense in this conversation at all, so why do you attempt to insert it into the conversation? I'm looking forward to the comforts of a proper city too; that doesn't detract from the fact that I'm there to search for solutions – a point which Gale, even in this moment of optimism, reminds us of himself: he says, himself, that more important than any of those luxuries, is the search for solutions.

There are some people who would recriminate the person who, when everything seems terrible and dire, can still appreciate the good things for what they are, and who can accept the moments when they must rest or recuperate as being such moments, and release their weariness and stresses during those moments. The ones who rebuke these people are generally not very pleasant people to be around themselves. Being able to appreciate the things that we are able to appreciate in times of strife and hardship is an important and valuable skill.

I've got a tadpole in my brain, and no idea when, if, or how it might destroy me body and soul. I'm doing everything I can to solve that problem, within my own personal morality... and when I get to Baldur's gate, I will have to sleep, and I will have to eat, and I will have to bathe, and I am very much looking forward to sleeping in comfortable beds, and eating good food, and bathing in pleasant conditions, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.


This is not true either; Gale, more than any of the others, as far a I recall, has strong reactions to situations that deal with the potential loss of innocent lives of others, or their endangerment. His reaction to Nettie trying to kill you, under the pretence of 'treating' you, comes to mind, as well as his reactions relating to Mayrina and Ethel. He's also one of he only ones who will leave you hard cut for selling out the tieflings and the druids to the goblins, which he will do irrespective of Halsin's status, so it's not about tadpole cure options.

==


I'm not going to hold it against you for suggesting this, because I know it comes from a place of good intention... but do I strike you as the sort who allows herself to be manipulated in ways she does not wish to be?

If a friend invites me over, and makes me dinner, and then sits me down after the fancy desert and says “So.. look... Can I ask you to promise me something?”

My first instinct is: “This is probably something serious. They've gone to a lot of effort to make sure I'm in a good mood before broaching this subject to me, whatever it is, so, I guess it must really be something important to them that they want me in their corner for, whatever that looks like. It's probably something pretty big, too, so... let's hear them out.” And then I will listen to what they have to say, and I'll make my decision based on the information at my disposal.

If your first instinct in that situation is “This Person Is Trying To Manipulate Me! Slimy Git! How Dare!!”, then, I may regret saying this, and I'll ask for your understanding that it also comes from a place of good intention, but that's concerning to me.

Reading through the rest of our comments and exchanges on this topic, and I know I'm running real long here, so I'll try to be succinct... but, the more I read about your own background and history as you tell it, the more inclined I am to feel that you have conditioned yourself, or been conditioned, to see and identify malicious, manipulative behaviour Everywhere, even where it simply does not exist and is not present.

Like, here's the thing: I could go back over your past three posts to me, and pull out a list of comments, phrases and details, that, were I you, and you Gale, I would absolutely characterise as you being a Direly Machiavellian Manipulator and of Obviously Insidious Intent with the way you are trying to manipulate me into being more agreeable to your stance. I know that's not what you're doing, and I know that that was no part of your intent – you are trying to be convincing(I presume), but there's nothing underhanded about it (and I apologise if anything I've said thus far has leaned into implying that without my noticing).


I'm sorry, but I really don't... and I'm just not sure how it is that you don't see that. Your position requires you to presume that the information provided above the table, by the game system, is falsified, that the information provided in universe is also lies, and then requires you to build an entirely different story to replace the information provided, and string it up in order to make sure it still can be made to fit the other behaviours that seem to contradict it, based on an initial supposition that you have no hard in-game evidence for.

My stance requires you to trust that the above-table tools are working as described, and to take the information provided at face value when those tools report it as honest. Nothing more.

=

Humour to round it off...


Given the chatter about Mystra, wouldn't you say it's more apt to characterise him as the student who got in trouble for engaging in adult activities with his teachers? I which case, you say Gale and I are not alike, but... erm...


If serving staff here behaved like that, I, and a lot of other folks, would likely get quite agitated at them for their invasive and presumptuous attitude... yikes.

(Here, the general propositions are: “Is everything alright here?” and/or “Can I get you anything else?”)

Different cultures and different mindsets, perhaps (I don't actually know where you're located, sorry.... I'm in Australia ^.^).

Touching base at the end: I spent a couple of hours going through this and picking over the points we're discussing, because I'm enjoying the examination of it, and I'm finding your view and stance very interesting, for being so different from my own. Other folks have mentioned feeling the same way about Gale as you do, and I've had a real hard time pinning down an honest and open conversation about it, so thank you for this! I'm not trying to win a debate or argue, and if anything here ended up getting too direct or too aggressive, or feeling like an attack, that's a failure on my part, and one I apologise for ^.^