Not spoilering because there's a weird forum bug that can make spoilered comments invisible unless you click on quote reply.
Quote
To KillerRabbit, what was said before – that this is likely staying the realms of us having differing opinions, still remains, and I'm also adding to it the standing statement that I think there's a lot of merit in the suggestion that there may not even be an objective truth to some of the details and motives, if there's the possibility of them swinging retroactively based on how we guide the story (Those of us who read a manipulating mastermind with intents on godhood will turn out to be correct if they play making decisions that assert that... and those that read a good person who made a bad mistake, and support him as such, will also be right in their own games). I know it may seem like repeated back-patting, but it's one of those conversations where checking in and touching base is worthwhile, to keep things light-hearted, so, sorry if reiterating it seems a bit repetitive!
Quote
Twice, you have attempted to introduce the idea of murder and death as the thing that Gale's request is compelling you to do, as part of characterising his requests as manipulative and Machiavellian. Both times, you inserted the supposition of death and murder of innocents
Heck. I keep searching youtube for one that takes the option that makes Gale say "It won't be just me that suffers" but I can't. Too many of the videos are edited for length. I'm going to have play a game where I bring gale, aren't I? Will respond in coming days
Quote
Regarding the Idol and Gale's comments; I've never had him comment about the allure of such items except, explicitly in the circumstance where he is asking you for an item that you have, and you have the option of telling him you're not ready to part with it. Other lines at other junctures, certainly, but that particular line, only ever in that specific circumstance – that is my experience at least.
That also fires if you don't have any artifacts on you, on this I'm certain. It's part of Gales training of Tav - if you agree not only are you good but also brave. "which is to say, I know the sacrifice I ask . . . in the hands of powerful . . .good, some boldness will serve us well"
Quote
I'd also like to note that you consider Gale's reaction about not asking you to steal it to be a manipulation... Counter point: Gale is correct, and he didn't ask you to steal it. The player character is the one who invoked the idea of stealing it, and it is the player character's line that is casting Gale in a negative light, implying that he proposed theft when he literally did not.
This is lots of fun but it's a bit lawyerly isn't it? It's not like the idol is for sale . . .
Quote
One of the things that doesn't add up is Mystra cutting off contact for no reason at all. [...] Mystra does not ghost her lovers.
Quote
So, my understanding of the situation here – and I'll admit I'm hazy, so if you've got better quotes/videos etc that we can both look at that might help, but... My understanding was that Mystra didn't ghost him right away... what happened was that she grew more distant and not as immediately on-call as direct lovers. Not like he'd done anything wrong, just that she wasn't making the same time for him she used to, and eventually was not really making direct one-on-one time for him any more at all. He was still her chosen, and still in her good books, but he wasn't enjoying the heady closeness that he'd initially had when he was a fresh and new prodigy for her. Gale couldn't accept this, however (which is where I do find a bit of fault in him).
It's not clear if it was sudden or the whispers stop at some point. (1:29)
It think a slow tapering off of contact would fit what we know about the shadow weave - in 3.5 it's hinted that even the god of divination can't divine things obscured by the shadow weave - so she could have been calling him but failing to reach his phone. Perhaps she was never upset at all?
Quote
That's my understanding of events... Mystra takes many lovers, and she loves freely, and without commitment. That means that you often take new lovers, and it means you often move on from old ones; there is no shame or fault or recrimination in any of that.
True - she's something of a relationship anarchist but the only other version of ending contact / revoking chosen status I can remember is Sammaster and in that instance she sent Eliminster to intervene. Otherwise chosen status is nigh immortality.
Quote
Gale did not 'Cheat on' Mystra, in that sense, unless you presume, and I'll say it again – against all evidence to the contrary that the game currently provides us – that he knew that what he was trying to access was shadow weave, not just a chunk of the first weave that had been cut off as he tells us, and that, knowing that, he took it into himself willingly. All the evidence we have points to these things not being correct; we get no insight check on his story-telling of the matter, and our look into his mind confirms that the shadow weave attacked him violently and suddenly when he found it. So, he only 'cheated' if you are actively ignoring the evidence we have, and are constructing a completely different story of your own creation, which has no evidence to support it.
I honestly had not seen this before I used the cheating on the ex line! Note that Gale has an opportunity to suggest some version of ethical non monogamy but doesn't - he wanted an affair or a break up. I mean come on! I can't believe Astarian wouldn't be open to the idea of ENM (or, since it's Astarian it would just be NM wouldn't it?)
Take note of another time when we aren't allowed an insight check or tadpole - Astarian's meeting of the Gur and his transformation into a Vampire spawn.
Why did the Gur attack him in the first place? Could the Gur have had good reason to seek him out? Did they want revenge?
Or think about why the flaming fist officer who distrusts Wyll - we only have a part of the story there but no tadpole or wisdom option.
Not getting the full story because the DM doesn't want us to have it yet par for the course in this game.
Quote
Regardless of this... Gale, could not accept that he was 'moved on from', and it drove him to an action which cost him even more; that was his folly, and the poetic tragedy of it is that the burden levied upon him forces him to be the gate-keeper of a thing that destroys the very things he has loved and devoted himself to his whole life sharing and spreading... and he must feed it to survive.
That's the crux of the matter and you may be correct - there may not be a definitive truth but multiple true stories in the game itself.
Quote
“Yes, . . . committing 'noble' suicide is the only acceptable course of action!”
Yes. Except, again, that it's not giving up - that's just facing up the facts. Better that than exploding a bomb that could take out a city the size of Waterdeep, better that destroying objects sacred to Mystra, better that than feeding the shadow weave.
And it was just ghosting and not betrayal he would have done well to do so right away - he'd get to see Mystra again.
This means that Gale's premise alone – completely irrespective of anything to do with his personality – prevents you from Ever giving him a fair shot or thinking of him fairly, by definition... or so it seems. Or, to use your own modern analogy... the fact that Gale has (explosive)cancer, and isn't choosing to terminate his own life immediately because of that fact, makes him a bad person, on your metric. If I'm mistaken please correct me... because that isn't fair.
To be clear:
Quote
Some evil person has put a tactical-nuke suicide vest on you that will explode if tampered with. Because you are expert in such matters you know bomb is big enough to take out all of NYC. Timer is set for 3 days.
Quote
I buy the ticket to NYC. 100% that's what I do... and it's what any sane and rational person would do.
I'm running as fast I as can to get away from the penguins . . .
Quote
I may have a personal and biased outlook on this, and I accept that, but it's where I stand. By all means, if I seem harsh here, drop me a message, as it's not something that I'll discuss in this thread.
I accept that - I'll not press on the matter. We'll just accept that our views are very different on this matter.
Quote
This is not true either; Gale, more than any of the others, as far a I recall, has strong reactions to situations that deal with the potential loss of innocent lives of others, or their endangerment. His reaction to Nettie trying to kill you, under the pretence of 'treating' you, comes to mind, as well as his reactions relating to Mayrina and Ethel. He's also one of he only ones who will leave you hard cut for selling out the tieflings and the druids to the goblins, which he will do irrespective of Halsin's status, so it's not about tadpole cure options.
You can convince him to stay and he will help you slaughter everyone but he feels awful about it - another place where his reactions and actions are at odds.
Glad I looked this up - I really like his lines but I can never bring myself to side with Minthara. His lines about the spreading darkness within makes me think that chosen of shar is real possibility . . . .
Quote
but do I strike you as the sort who allows herself to be manipulated in ways she does not wish to be?
No you do not But your phrasing does make think we've identified something important. We have different emotional reactions to . . . ummm . . . some forms of consensual manipulation?
Quote
(sniping dinner example) . . . I may regret saying this, and I'll ask for your understanding that it also comes from a place of good intention, but that's concerning to me.
I read that in the spirit it was intended. As a sincere expression of concern for my well being. It's nice to be thought of
Luckily my friends know me well enough to never try something like that on me.
Quote
you have conditioned yourself, or been conditioned, to see and identify malicious, manipulative behaviour Everywhere, even where it simply does not exist and is not present.
Yes. Except that it is everywhere. And what's more, I try to make other people see the world the way I do so they can better protect themselves from getting into manipulative relationships. Such is the irony for me that the people who tend to see the world the way I do are usually either Focauldians or heavily into the D/s lifestyle - but they and I have very different reactions when they see what I see.
Quote
Like, here's the thing: I could go back over your past three posts to me, and pull out a list of comments, phrases and details, that, were I you, and you Gale, I would absolutely characterise as you being a Direly Machiavellian Manipulator and of Obviously Insidious Intent with the way you are trying to manipulate me into being more agreeable to your stance. I know that's not what you're doing, and I know that that was no part of your intent – you are trying to be convincing(I presume), but there's nothing underhanded about it (and I apologise if anything I've said thus far has leaned into implying that without my noticing).
Are we doing that? Are we trying to persuade one another? Or are both spelling our positions because it's entertaining to see something through the eyes of another person? From my selfish perspective I just enjoy reading your replies.
But, granted, manipulation is everywhere and, try as I might, I've not purged myself of the impulse to manipulate so I might have done so unconsciously - if so, I'm sorry.
Quote
you say we're not alike, but... erm...
What thing for you and I to have in common . . . I've only met 4 other people who . . .
Quote
(Here, the general propositions are: “Is everything alright here?” and/or “Can I get you anything else?”)
I used those as well - the phrase you use is determined by the body language of the people and how much they've eaten. If you've only heard those phrases the chances are that you are usually happy when eating in restaurants and appear to be enjoying your food and the company you keep. Pro tip - never wait tables on Mothers Day in the U.S. Half the people you end up serving don't feel comfortable in restaurants
Timing is key. "How is the food?" then you have microseconds before they start thinking - thinking that must be replaced with your own suggestions! "Is it good?" is the best question to ask but a quick "good?" is better if you are dealing with a business diner.
Quote
Touching base at the end: I spent a couple of hours going through this and picking over the points we're discussing, because I'm enjoying the examination of it, and I'm finding your view and stance very interesting, for being so different from my own.
Likewise!
Here's someone who also reacted strongly against gale but for (slightly) different reasons. Found it while looking for the "it won't just be me" video. I think this human dislikes Gale even more than I do!
Strange note to end on I realize but I didn't know where else to put it. So thanks again for making efforts to keep the conversation fun.
