And it's really annoying they are this stubborn with bad homebrew that people hate.
To be fair, I have seen plenty of outsiders of the CRPG genre having their most memorable moments by taking profit of BA shove. It isn't balanced, but it sure makes for some fun situations.
And it's really annoying they are this stubborn with bad homebrew that people hate.
To be fair, I have seen plenty of outsiders of the CRPG genre having their most memorable moments by taking profit of BA shove. It isn't balanced, but it sure makes for some fun situations.
You can have the same fun with a less OP Shove. People will still fly to their deaths. In fact I'd argue it would feel more rewarding if it wasn't so trivial to pull off. Thunderwave and Pushing Attack would also feel more special.
And it's really annoying they are this stubborn with bad homebrew that people hate.
To be fair, I have seen plenty of outsiders of the CRPG genre having their most memorable moments by taking profit of BA shove. It isn't balanced, but it sure makes for some fun situations.
You can have the same fun with a less OP Shove. People will still fly to their deaths. In fact I'd argue it would feel more rewarding if it wasn't so trivial to pull off. Thunderwave and Pushing Attack would also feel more special.
I dunno ... I dont really mind Shove cost BA ... or maybe i just got used to it. Imagining that it would become Action and AI would still concider it optimal approach ... meaning they would shove us twice (thrice in the end game content???) ... seems like dive in the lake, bcs its raining outside. :-/
To me, reducing and fixating the range would be prefectly sufficient.
Originally Posted by Lastman
where is i don't care option ?:)
Right there. O_o If you dont pick ... you dont care. :P
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
I dunno ... I dont really mind Shove cost BA ... or maybe i just got used to it. Imagining that it would become Action and AI would still concider it optimal approach ... meaning they would shove us twice (thrice in the end game content???) ... seems like dive in the lake, bcs its raining outside. :-/
To me, reducing and fixating the range would be prefectly sufficient.
Originally Posted by Lastman
where is i don't care option ?:)
Right there. O_o If you dont pick ... you dont care. :P
It might me an interpretion issue but if i read the PHB i do read there that you can shove once per turn.
PHB says: Quote:"
Sh o v in g a C r e a t u r e Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them. The target of your shove must be no more than one size larger than you, and it must be within your reach. You make a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target’s Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use). If you win the contest, you either knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."
So even with multiple BA we should not be able to shove more than once/turn.
It might me an interpretion issue but if i read the PHB i do read there that you can shove once per turn.
PHB says: Quote:"
Sh o v in g a C r e a t u r e Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
My understanding is that means you can replace any attack with shove, rather than replacing only one attack with a shove. See, eg, this tweet from Jeremy Crawford. But I agree that it’s somewhat ambiguous. Perhaps there’s a more definitive ruling somewhere?
I’d still prefer shove to be an attack action, and deal with potentially multiple shoves from warrior types at higher levels rather than multiple attacks plus a shove, but regardless of whether shove is an action or bonus action, agree its distance needs to be reduced.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
Shove doesn't make sense as one "more things to do". If they wants us to have more things to do with our bonus action, they should use them for weapons attacks. Kind of fast "manoeuvers" that cost bonus action or slower/more complex manoeuvers that cost action+bonus action.
They could have also added a lot more common things to do... like throwing a rope to climb (consume bonus action + full movement so you can't climb after you throw it - just a suggestion to balance it).
The game doesn't have to look like a shove fest to give players more things to do. This is a role playing game and what role playing game need is options / actions to play your role. This kind of shove bonus action, as currently designed and balance, is not something someone would ever role play with because it wouldn't make any sense in any players minds.
I think using a bonus action for an additional weapon attack would be more OP than shove. Shove doesn't necessarily do damage unless you're well positioned. I'd be fine with shove becoming a full action but I doubt I would use it much. Having it as a bonus action gives you some tactical options, especially if your main attack misses. You can push the enemy away from you so you don't trigger an opportunity attack or you can yeet them off a cliff or into lava depending on positioning. It definitely makes you think a little more about using the environment to your advantage. And it helps you not feel so helpless if your main attack misses.
Having shove as a full action could also get really annoying when enemies have multiple actions too. It's already a bit annoying as it is. I think the shove distance is really the problem.
It might me an interpretion issue but if i read the PHB i do read there that you can shove once per turn.
PHB says: Quote:"
Sh o v in g a C r e a t u r e Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
My understanding is that means you can replace any attack with shove, rather than replacing only one attack with a shove. See, eg, this tweet from Jeremy Crawford. But I agree that it’s somewhat ambiguous. Perhaps there’s a more definitive ruling somewhere?
I’d still prefer shove to be an attack action, and deal with potentially multiple shoves from warrior types at higher levels rather than multiple attacks plus a shove, but regardless of whether shove is an action or bonus action, agree its distance needs to be reduced.
I fear that it goes down to how it is interpreted. Did not find anything more clear.
I go at it logically, swinging a sword, even a greatsword, Multiple attacks mean for me that its like a Combo. It's not like chopping wood but more fluid. Shove on the other hand is a contested action, go take a friend and try shoving each other. If you ask me that takes more effort and time than attacking with a weapon.
So for me ONE shove/round would be way more logical. Shoving in combat is...pretty strange anyway. Combat is constantly in motion...people are swinging all kinds of sharp weapons around and you just go in there and....shove him in addtion to your weapon attacks. I could only imagine it as a shoulder block or something.
Sh o v in g a C r e a t u r e Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
There is nothing here about limiting amounts of shove per turn. The sentence is there to make a distinction that if you have multiattack shoving will replace one of the attacks not all of them. Considering the context that is what this sentence refers to.
If it’s purpose was to highlight that you can make only one push per turn regardless of multiattack it would be worded differently.
Sh o v in g a C r e a t u r e Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
There is nothing here about limiting amounts of shove per turn. The sentence is there to make a distinction that if you have multiattack shoving will replace one of the attacks not all of them. Considering the context that is what this sentence refers to.
If it’s purpose was to highlight that you can make only one push per turn regardless of multiattack it would be worded differently.
Sh o v in g a C r e a t u r e Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you. If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
There is nothing here about limiting amounts of shove per turn. The sentence is there to make a distinction that if you have multiattack shoving will replace one of the attacks not all of them. Considering the context that is what this sentence refers to.
If it’s purpose was to highlight that you can make only one push per turn regardless of multiattack it would be worded differently.
the limit is in the words Attack Action, since you can only make one per turn.
the limit is in the words Attack Action, since you can only make one per turn.
That would be the case of the rule only stated that:
Quote
Using the Attack action, you can make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you.
That would mean that you can use attack action to make a shove and that would consume your main action - and that is how it works with classes without multiattack. That's why they follow with:
Quote
If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this attack replaces one of them.
If you have multiattack, shove will "consume" one of the attacks of the multiattack not full "attack action". That is not interpretation, that it what it says. We do agree that push replaces one of the attacks from the multiattack, yes?
It is in line with how attack is explained:
Quote
The most Common Action to take in combat is the Attack Action, whether you are swinging a sword, firing an arrow from a bow, or brawling with your fists. With this Action, you make one of melee or ranged Attack.
Certain Features, such as the Extra Attack feature of the Fighter, allow you to make more than one Attack with this Action
See, it's structured the same way. Not all classes have multiattack so it is treated as exception, rather than a baseline. So:
Attack Action = push/grapple
Unless you have multiattack, in which case: One of the attacks = push/grapple
This is not ambiguous. You can shove once per turn using an Attack Action, any ONE Attack Action. It doesn't matter how many attacks a player has, ONE of them can be a shove.
hehe this will never happen larain wants martial classes to have extra options so they aren't just autoattack spammers. And having bonus action hide and shove and all the other actives skills they made does that. They ruined sneak attack and so on... It's all part of the plan to mAke it more like DoS 2, it was their main goal since day one but i'm fine either way like i said. Still, naughty Larian!
I fear that it goes down to how it is interpreted.
Isnt everything in the end?
Originally Posted by sublimeclown
unless you're well positioned
Yeah, the problem is game isnt really clear about what it even is. :-/
Take this example: - 9:40, Beretha shoving Astarion - 10:00, Shadowheart shoving Beretha - 10:30 Lae'zel shoving remaining Githyanki
I mean ... this is ridiculous, isnt it? O_o And yes, i know its not last patch ... blame Wolf for not doing enough shove videos.
Absolutely ridiculous... Larians retrogression to pinball gaming... I can't stand this kind of mechanic. People have been asking for minigames like Witchers Gwent Card Game, right? Maybe this is Larians kind of minigame *duck away*.
Especially at SH shove you can literally see how the Githyanki glides even further over the ground, just to fly further. It would have hit the ground before and not flown into the gorge at all...
The only positive thing about the crap. I have again a catchy tune for today.
This is not ambiguous. You can shove once per turn using an Attack Action, any ONE Attack Action. It doesn't matter how many attacks a player has, ONE of them can be a shove.
Well, given that it’s clearly been interpreted in different ways and not just by folk on this forum I think it’s fair to say it’s ambiguous. “Any one” is not synonymous with “only one”, though I agree it could be read that way. But it seems equally valid to read it as meaning that any individual attack can be replaced by a shove, which consumes just the one attack action it replaces, consistent with other attacks in the same turn also being replaced by shoves. Any clarifications I’ve found seem to support the latter interpretation, see eg this post and this article. I’ve not yet found anything similar supporting your more restrictive reading, but the only official-ish ruling I’ve found, the tweet I posted above from Jeremy Crawford, is only slightly less ambiguous than the original rule and doesn’t to my mind completely rule out that only one attack can be replaced. Happy to be pointed at any alternative sources that help clear things up more definitively.
"You may call it 'nonsense' if you like, but I've heard nonsense, compared with which that would be as sensible as a dictionary!"
People have been asking for minigames like Witchers Gwent Card Game, right? Maybe this is Larians kind of minigame *duck away*. 
