Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides Stealth & Ambush Game Mechanics Megathread

Well, at least they hear us, even if they decide not to listen.

Au contraire, this is exactly what I want.

I just wrapped Wasteland3, and it seemed to adopt some of Larian’s issues - the movement works the same (one character under controlled and other are chained stepping and tripping into every hazard along the way and stepping into enemy detection circles), and turn based combat is instanced - so you can have battle and see enemies walking in real time at the edge of your screen. It doesn’t happen much in base game, but it is very noticeable in 2nd DLC.

Of course, entire team enters combat when engaging the enemy, as doing otherwise would be down right silly, but as Wasteland3 attempted 2 player coop play I suspect those two are connected? In case of Wasteland3 it’s more of visual jank - I didn’t stumble into any way to abuse system. Still, interesting and worrying to see another company emulate Larian’s problems - I can’t recal it being a thing ever before.

I suspect that given the timing involved, the problem is less a matter of one influencing the other - wasteland 3 has been out for a while now after all - and more likely one of parallel evolution, two companies trying to make turn based coop work and running into the same problem. Hopefully whoever makes Wasteland will actually consider the issue something qorth trying to fix moving forward, because I doubt Larian will.

So gameplay videos of upcoming Lamplighters League from Paradox/Harebrained Schemes emerged: Checkout the enemy's turn at 36:53




What's this, unalerted enemies neatly joining the turn based system? What kind of groundbreaking technology is this?!

Not necessarily as such, but does it overwhelm the game since there's just no reason not to use it every time and that feels repetitive.

I returned to BG3 recently after a cca 2-year hiatus to see the state of the game before release. I rolled a run-of-the-mill wood elf Ranger archer and began playing through the tutorial area. As I reach the first combat encounter I tell myself I might as well try sneaking ahead since I'm a ranger. I crouch down and approach the three imps. I kill the first one with a single shot and to my surprise the others do not react to it at all. I shoot the second one, roll too low for a kill and instinctively press C. I'm not really expecting the game to let me hide since initiative already started, but to my bafflement, it does. The imps don't even attempt to look for me and only stand frozen. I finish the second one off and 'hide' for free again. I watch the third imp stand idly by on its turn before I kill it too.

I was determined to repeat this strategy, if only to see how much the game would let me get away with. I wish I hadn't.

Using this very same shoot-crouch-shoot loop I defeated the other imps on the ship, the intellect devourers at the crash site and every single bandit at the abandoned temple. The intellect devourers didn't even roll initiative as I mowed them down one by one. At one point I was standing literally 1m away from a bandit (but outside any cone of vision), shooting them in the back and crouching repeatedly while they just stood there helplessly. At no point in any of this was any actual stealth check rolled. All I was left thinking was, is this a joke? Can I seriously continue to solo the game this way with no repercussions? Why even interact with the combat system at all?

The implementation of DnD5e stealth mechanics in this game is a broken atrocity that puts Skyrim stealth archery to shame. Within only 2 hours of gameplay it managed to dispel all my enthusiasm to play the game and instead left me disillusioned and wondering how many other equally broken systems and poorly implemented 5e mechanics I'm about to encounter if I pour any more time into it. This level of brokenness is unacceptable for a released game and I really hope this has already been addressed internally and what we're seeing in EA now is miles away from what we'll see on release. But to end on a more positive note I'd like to offer some actionable feedback.

• Hiding in 5e is an action. No one should be doing it for free, not to mention it invalidates Rogue's cunning action. Even DOS2 Lone Wolf Chameleon Cloak abuse was at least limited by a cooldown.
• Enemies should actively seek the player, especially when that player is the only target left.
• Sneaking should NOT be an automatic success when keeping outside cones of vision.
• Finding a player hiding in plain sight without even having moved behind cover should be trivial for enemies.
• Any hostile action against a valid target should always start initiative and reveal your position. Surprise rounds are advantage enough.

Yep, stealth has been problematic from the start and if anything enemies got worse at spotting us and starting combat in patch 9 which came out in December. (The imps in the prologue seem particularly bad, but that’s not to say it’s good elsewhere as you’ve seen.)

It’s probably top of my personal wish list for improvement come full release in August, as currently I simply avoid using ambush tactics given how broken they are, despite generally loving stealthy sniper play in games. There’s been plenty of feedback about it here and elsewhere over the course of early access, and the suggestions in your post are ones other folk have made too, so Larian certainly know what we think.

What, if anything, they have decided to do about it we’ll have to wait and see.

Heya Llengrath, thanks for voicing your thoughts ^.^

Unfortunately, this is an issue, pretty much as you report (stealth is completely broken and abusable with zero repercussions or limitations, and functionally prevents you from *using* stealth legitimately in the game at all because of how simply broken and cheaty it is), and has been so from the beginning - and despite many, many threads about it, Larian have shown no indication of any intention to change this, even though they've updated and changed many other things that were recognised issues.

Normally, I'd recommend you to submit your feedback to Larian directly (Here for general feedback and Here for bug reporting), and I do want to say that it's worth making sure they hear as man individual voices who reached the same conclusion on the matter as possible... and I'd still recommend you do this if you can spare the time and effort! Sadly, though, the reality we're facing is that the game releases in a month or two, and it's looking increasingly likely that the game will hard launch with stealth in its current ridiculous implementation.

Larian should be well aware of the feedback by now.
Hopefully they'll change it!

If not then modders to the rescue.
In dos2 I chose to not use cheese tactics...

If only one change could be made regarding stealth, I think this one might be the easiest and the most satisfying

My thoughts and prayers are with the stealth system, and I hope it will get better for the August release 😊

The first character I rolled in bg3 was a rogue, and I have been avoiding stealth ever since, with only occasional tests to see if any progress was made.

At this moment stealth and combat engagement from stealth remains my top concern as far as Bg3 mechanics go.

It is concerning how the stealth system has been broken for 2 years. Probably devs consider it functional and fun. After all they did override the 5e rules with their own vision cone mechanic. Narrow vision cones in a turn based game is an absurd concept. It's a real time action system, and still the cones are far too short and narrow because peripheral vision is a thing. So is hearing, which is completely ignored here.

Stealth feels so bad and cheaty to use, I just can't do it. If enemies start using Stealth, playing a high Perception character will feel even worse. Any 0 Stealth Heavy Armor Disadvantage enemy can stay out of your vision cone and surprise you. And don't forget to teach the enemy AI to circle behind you at the end of every turn and "hide". This so stupid. I feel stupid writing about it. /end

So say we all! Amen ^^

It’s breathtaking how illusion-breaking stealth is. If Larian put all that effort in making the city of Baldur’s Gate seamless, it would make sense they tried to patch up a system full of seams (seamful?). If that’s the case, though, it’s a pity they didn’t try anything publicly. Stealth is not a few tweaks away from great; it’s an overhaul away from passable.

It occurs to me that all 5 of OP’s proposed changes taken in conjunction would make stealthing very difficult. Not that that’s a bad thing, but the impact on gameplay deserves examination. What better way than by playtesting?

There’s a universe where that’s exactly what Larian were doing by recruiting local gamers in Belgium, Spain and elsewhere for in-house testing. I don’t believe we live in that universe, but time will tell soon enough.

Thanks to everyone for the friendly responses. Now that you've pointed out to me that this has been an ongoing discussion for years I feel like maybe I was a little too rash to make this redundant post Either way, the disappointment is there and I think it's important to voice it. Hopefully it'll let Larian know people are still having this experience and that it's a problem.

@Niara I wasn't aware of these feedback forms, thanks for that. I'd like to think Larian do read their forums and that my complaint, as well as all the others, are seen. I don't want to pointlessly clog their inbox with the same feedback they've been hearing a lot over the past 3 years, but maybe you're right and the more voices speak to them about the broken stealth system, the more likely they are to take notice and address it.

No worries, I think we're all happy to have another opportunity to vent our frustration at the stealth system! More voices complaining about it also can't hurt, though as folks have said at this point with the game releasing in less than three months, I can't imagine Larian have not already decided what they're doing for good or ill.

Unlike some, the fact we didn't see improvements in EA hasn't (yet) dented my optimism that we might see something better at release. Stealth was so broken in a way that seemed to require a significant overhaul of a number of ways the game works that, even if Larian did want to change it, I wouldn't be surprised if it took a long time to get working well enough for them to want to show anyone and wasn't ready for release at the time of the last patch in December last year. But they've had six months since then, plus whatever they were already working on before the patch but decided not to include in it. I'm still braced for disappointment (and inability to satisfyingly play a stealth character), but don't think there's yet reason for total despair!

Either way, not all that long to wait now until we know for certain.

I'm stealing this sentence and putting it on a plaque somewhere.

I proposed changes that I thought would bring BG3's stealth mechanics in line with DnD 5e. Not that 5e is some holy grail of good rpg design (far from it), but I believe its stealth system works reasonably well and would be a safe baseline for Larian to implement. In the years I've DM'd 5e my experience is that it's easy for a specialized character (e.g Rogue or Ranger with Expertise) to achieve a +10 Stealth bonus by level 5, which is absolutely enough to consistently avoid notice as most published creatures have a Passive Perception around 13, often less. And that's not accounting for the Skulker feat, spells like Pass without trace, magic items like the cloak and boots of elvenkind and other stealth-improving options that can turn even a fighter with moderate Dexterity into a decent sneak. TL;DR I think RAW 5e stealth would work fine with little playtesting needed and leave Stealth and ambushes as a rewarding option for characters who choose to specialize in it.

I just read the recent post about Shove apparently still being a bonus action 20-foot push. It's quite worrisome and it implies to me that Larian don't care strongly about mechanical balance and fairness, which doesn't bode well for the stealth system also. I'm ready to be surprised, but I won't hold my breath.

I don't know. I think not holding your breath is a good idea, but I'm still determined to look on the bright side until forced by the reality of the actual game to come down to earth with a bump . I can fairly easily imagine Larian reading the feedback about eg, hide and shove as bonus actions and shove distance and taking it on board but not being wholly convinced that their original approach wouldn't work better for the longer term once we had the rest of the game and abilities. If they changed them once then decided they were right the first time, it would be really hard to change them back again, or at least it would cause no end of ruckus. Whereas by leaving as is, they've kept their options open to try out different approaches in house and make their decision about exactly how it will work later in the development process.

Which isn't to say I'd not have preferred Larian to make the changes in EA and let us play around with them, I really would have. Only that I could understand why they wouldn't even if they were seriously considering doing so for the full release!

I truly hope you're right. I saw someone express the opinion that this lack of balance is intentional on Larian's part because it lets streamers attract a wider audience with cheap laughs. I don't know if that's true, but it doesn't sound implausible given how Divinity felt to play. If so, I think they're building the systems of their game on a rather fragile foundation and I'd hate to see BG3 become my favourite genre's court jester.

I think it's undeniably true that Larian have a preference for what they see as fun and streamworthy gameplay and moments. I also think this is entirely compatible with mechanics that you can find clever (or dumb) ways to exploit for giggles but which don't impinge on the play of folk who prefer to avoid cheese or cartoonishness (must be a real word for that!). In fact, I think it's funnier when something that works well when played perfectly straight can, when combined with other features or in certain situations, suddenly become ridiculous or OP in some way, though of course humour and fun are subjective. But while, from what I hear, the D:OS games didn't strike the balance I'd prefer (though I played both at least a bit, I honestly don't remember them well enough to judge for myself), BG3 has a wider audience including folk who love D&D but not D:OS and it feels possible, if far from certain, that Larian will modify their approach or reset their priorities at least somewhat as a result of this and the feedback they've got.

Of course, I'm trying to convince myself as much as anyone else here, so I'll stop banging on now .