Just to be clear, I'm mainly arguing devil's advocate as to why people might feel the way they do about Lae'zel, I in general don't mind her as she is now despite what I see as flaws in her writing. Though there are some parts of your arguments that I disagree with still.
Thats how i take it, its just debate about interesting topic.
I mean, if we don't make right for the creche then we're not all that useful and we only slow things down for her.
Do we?
I mean, if we leave her alone in trap, knock her out, or just help her and leave her free and alone ...
In all 3 cases, she arives to Githyanki patrol "coveniently" at the same time as we do.
I get it may seem that way, but she dont really know where she is, nor where to look out for her kin ... so ... im not really sure, if this even can be said. :-/
There certainly is direct way, and we as players knows about it ...
But from characters perspective, we know (unless i remember some talking wrong) that other Githyanki are "in North" ... but we also know that "in North" there is something burning ... and we also know that "in North" is Gobin camp, from wich they keep attacking all and everyone around ...
From tactical perspective it make sense to deal with at least this problem in advance ...
True, Tollhouse, Teahouse, or Underdark ... those all are unnecesary detours and she should be louder against them.
As for your second point, it's true, but we also were not stuck in a trap.
Well, indeed ...
But this one is also the only "functional" catching trap trough whole EA.
We were not stuck in any ... but there is also none we even could be stuck in.
Now this makes me wonder ...
Since there is so many broken traps around that area ... do you think she triggered them all? xD xD xD
And it also depeds a bit on playtrough, bcs just few seconds earlier, our brain could have ben almost eaten by wounded mind flayer.
And the fact we have to rescue her does create an impression that's unlikely to go aware
I presume you wanted to say away ...
But i agree with this part, just my impression was obviously quite different from others.
We can turn it around ... even in that situation, where people claim she rely on us, she is snarky, harsh, refuses to say please, or thank ... she clearly made it clear that we are barely even worth her noticing.
And yet, people help her down ... why?
My gues is simple: Its a follower, roleplay be damned, there will be a content related to her!
If we just found her passed out on the sand, that would feel different.
We can find her in sand actually ...
If she is either knocked out, or killed on Nautiloid, she (or her body) will be on beach prepared for us to ressurect ... then she joins us right there.
[quote=Gray Ghost]It's not entirely fair or strictly logical, but by story logic, that's the implication.
Just as some other Larian logic ...
Looking at you, Astarion attacking someone whos party outnumber you in ratio 1:3.
I think we can agree that writing is here to blame.
I'll point to your dragon age example in particular because that's the only game you mentioned I'm familiar with. Alistair actually gets asked why he's taking his cues from a new recruit when he's at least a year or two more experienced (the sense I've always gotten is that he's still 'the new guy' himself relatively, but he's been around long enough to know the ropes). And he gives a reason. He admits to not being comfortable with leadership and preferring to take orders from someone else, and our character is the more assertive force, the one who's willing to take charge. So they took that fact of game narrative design and made the story work with it by tying it into Alistair's character. It's even something that can impact his character arc if he becomes king or not.
Indeed ...
The problem here is that Alistair, even tho i kinda liked him, was strongly submisive character ... Lae'zel is exact oposite.
Thats why there cant be any narrative reason for her to follow you, bcs unless you would be older Githyanki, she would never follow you (from narrative perspective).
So while I don't think the 'because it's our story' justification is bad in general, it's bad here because as written, Lae'zel's character runs entirely counter to her role in the story. Which is what I man when I say that it's a failing of her writing.
I dont really think this is example of bad writing ...
Lae'zel is basicaly writer paradox ...
Character like her cant exist in position where story needs her.
Dominant, strong character are ment to lead ...
Submisive, characters are ment to follow ...
How can you create dominant, strong character, that would follow? O_o Especialy if that character is supposed to be from race that ... well, is basicaly fantasy nazists. :-/
I dunno, i gues there is no way ... either Lae'zel wont make much sense, or she would be bad Githyanki, im not sure if there even is middleground.
Maybe, juuuuuuuuuuust maybe ... if she would keep periodicaly question our leadership, and challenging us for our position, it may look a little better.
You know something like "you are still piece of shit in my eyes, but you are strong enough piece of shit to lead us for now".
OR!
If Larian would give her some mind reading options here or there, that would show how frustrated she is, but somehow still willing to bare us for a little longer, since she could still use us.
I think there's still honestly a bit of an issue here because she's SO rigid, so set on only one goal that it wouldn't make sense for her to tolerate any but the most absolutely necessary diversions. To the point that taking on basically any side quest should be unacceptable to her.
Question is if that will be the case in final release ...
I have read some datamining spoilers from Creche ... and i think that nobody can be mad at me if i say that things wont go exactly as planned.
Bcs, when they did, right?
So, my question would be ... if following Lae'zel questline, indeed is "
ignore all, rush there and loose lots of content" ... or just "
take this first, and then return for the rest anyway" just as with some other quests related to tadpole.
I mean ...
- Ethel is deadend ... Gut is deadend ... Nettie is deadend ... Halsin is basicaly deadend (bcs he cant help us himself, but hopes that there is a place where we can find some answer) ... Volo is deadend (but did that really surprised anyone?
) ... why should Creche be any different?
- Even if you take the big decision (underdark, or mountain pass) ... as it is right now, if you go trough Underdark, you get to Grymforge ... you only find out that there is noone with still working pixie lantern ... so (unless there will be some changes ofc) you will have to return ...
My point is that maybe we all will be pleasantly surprised, when it comes out that Larian was leading us by the nose, and while we were thinking that we are deciding where our adventure will lead ... in fact, we only decided in what order we will wisit all places that were prepared for us.
When I saw this said "Sven" instead of "Sten" I thought for a moment you were referencing a very strange moment in a Panel from Hell. XD
Whoopsie.
And that extends to wanting her to be happy. And thus, wanting her to not be evil.
That is exactly the point of that real life example ...
We want her to be happy, but on our therms ... it smells little selfish to me.
She can be happy, if she would wield Silver Sword, and ride a Red Dragon ... then she would be happy ... and (at least for me) more importantly, she would still be herself.
But what we basicaly want for people that we are trying to shape ... and for Lae'zel quite litteraly ... is to change her into someone else, who would be easier for us to like.
And that is never healthy for anyone.
If i would want to take this to narrative extremes, imagine that she would indeed become nicer, diplomatic, kind, and the other stuff people wanted ... and then our adventure would end and she would return to her people ... what would await her there i wonder?
My guess? Death, probably fast and painfull.
The firstand least important is that I believe she says explicitly that she's never actually been to the astral plane, she's been living in Creche Ki'lir, on the asteroids that follow the moon in the material plane.
Thats quite possible ...
After all, even Kithrak called her Child. :-/
Still, there was some years.
The second, slightly more important point is that I don't think it would necessarily take only Vlaakith herself trying to kill her to make her change. I think if the writers wanted to, they could write plenty of emotionally wheighty, intense moments that could convincingly see her change. Not all at once, probably but still.
Well, power of writer is limitless obviously ...
My point was that i really liked that when even Kithrak acted against doctrine, she blamed him specificaly, rather than presuming it was all bunch of crap.
I simply dont like characters that "for the sake of story" or "for the sake of redeption" are willing to dump everything they build their whole life in meere seconds.
