Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Just to be clear, I'm mainly arguing devil's advocate as to why people might feel the way they do about Lae'zel, I in general don't mind her as she is now despite what I see as flaws in her writing. Though there are some parts of your arguments that I disagree with still.
Thats how i take it, its just debate about interesting topic. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
I mean, if we don't make right for the creche then we're not all that useful and we only slow things down for her.
Do we?
I mean, if we leave her alone in trap, knock her out, or just help her and leave her free and alone ...
In all 3 cases, she arives to Githyanki patrol "coveniently" at the same time as we do. laugh

I get it may seem that way, but she dont really know where she is, nor where to look out for her kin ... so ... im not really sure, if this even can be said. :-/
There certainly is direct way, and we as players knows about it ...
But from characters perspective, we know (unless i remember some talking wrong) that other Githyanki are "in North" ... but we also know that "in North" there is something burning ... and we also know that "in North" is Gobin camp, from wich they keep attacking all and everyone around ...
From tactical perspective it make sense to deal with at least this problem in advance ...

True, Tollhouse, Teahouse, or Underdark ... those all are unnecesary detours and she should be louder against them. laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
As for your second point, it's true, but we also were not stuck in a trap.
Well, indeed ...
But this one is also the only "functional" catching trap trough whole EA. laugh
We were not stuck in any ... but there is also none we even could be stuck in. laugh

Now this makes me wonder ...
Since there is so many broken traps around that area ... do you think she triggered them all? xD xD xD

And it also depeds a bit on playtrough, bcs just few seconds earlier, our brain could have ben almost eaten by wounded mind flayer. smile

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
And the fact we have to rescue her does create an impression that's unlikely to go aware
I presume you wanted to say away ...
But i agree with this part, just my impression was obviously quite different from others. laugh

We can turn it around ... even in that situation, where people claim she rely on us, she is snarky, harsh, refuses to say please, or thank ... she clearly made it clear that we are barely even worth her noticing.
And yet, people help her down ... why?
My gues is simple: Its a follower, roleplay be damned, there will be a content related to her! laugh

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
If we just found her passed out on the sand, that would feel different.
We can find her in sand actually ...
If she is either knocked out, or killed on Nautiloid, she (or her body) will be on beach prepared for us to ressurect ... then she joins us right there. smile

[quote=Gray Ghost]It's not entirely fair or strictly logical, but by story logic, that's the implication.
Just as some other Larian logic ...
Looking at you, Astarion attacking someone whos party outnumber you in ratio 1:3. laugh

I think we can agree that writing is here to blame. smile

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
[quote=Gray Ghost]I'll point to your dragon age example in particular because that's the only game you mentioned I'm familiar with. Alistair actually gets asked why he's taking his cues from a new recruit when he's at least a year or two more experienced (the sense I've always gotten is that he's still 'the new guy' himself relatively, but he's been around long enough to know the ropes). And he gives a reason. He admits to not being comfortable with leadership and preferring to take orders from someone else, and our character is the more assertive force, the one who's willing to take charge. So they took that fact of game narrative design and made the story work with it by tying it into Alistair's character. It's even something that can impact his character arc if he becomes king or not.
Indeed ...
The problem here is that Alistair, even tho i kinda liked him, was strongly submisive character ... Lae'zel is exact oposite.

Thats why there cant be any narrative reason for her to follow you, bcs unless you would be older Githyanki, she would never follow you (from narrative perspective).

Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
So while I don't think the 'because it's our story' justification is bad in general, it's bad here because as written, Lae'zel's character runs entirely counter to her role in the story. Which is what I man when I say that it's a failing of her writing.
I dont really think this is example of bad writing ...

Lae'zel is basicaly writer paradox ...
Character like her cant exist in position where story needs her.

Dominant, strong character are ment to lead ...
Submisive, characters are ment to follow ...
How can you create dominant, strong character, that would follow? O_o Especialy if that character is supposed to be from race that ... well, is basicaly fantasy nazists. :-/

I dunno, i gues there is no way ... either Lae'zel wont make much sense, or she would be bad Githyanki, im not sure if there even is middleground.

Maybe, juuuuuuuuuuust maybe ... if she would keep periodicaly question our leadership, and challenging us for our position, it may look a little better.
You know something like "you are still piece of shit in my eyes, but you are strong enough piece of shit to lead us for now". laugh

OR!

If Larian would give her some mind reading options here or there, that would show how frustrated she is, but somehow still willing to bare us for a little longer, since she could still use us.

I think that it's definitely bad writing to include a character to fulfill a role whose personality basically cannot be consistent if she's in that role. Lae'zel seems like a very bad case of the writers writing an origin character rather than a companion character. It's bad writing in the sense that they didn't consider the limitations they were presented with. Perhaps if they had they could have worked within or around them in some clever way to get the desired result. Instead they didn't and the outcome is compromised as a result.

As for finding a way to make her work, I thin there actually is. It's just about making her more pragmatic. She thinks of us as tools? Fine, lean into that. A warrior knows that if you have a good sword, then you have to oil it, sharpen it, generally take care of it or it will become dull and unreliable. Same with armor, carpenter's tools, etc. So maybe take that angle. Give her a moment where she respects us as tools - still beneath her, but well-suited to achieving her ultimate goals. Or on that note, maybe have her justify for we the player WHY she thinks we're of any value to begin with. Something where she acknowledges in some way what use we're serving to her. She calls us slaves or tools, but we don't act like it, so what benefit does SHE think she's getting? Maybe we get the chance to read her mind and see her acknowledge that she's in a new, unfamiliar world and that much as she hates it, having natives who know the way things work is her best bet at this point. Something along those lines.

Also, having her confront our character and having our character actually come out on top in some fashion would go a good way towards addressing the problem too. It would make other people feel satisfied about 'putting her in her place' as opposed to her just getting to constantly talk down to us withonly fairly meager reprisal from our character.

I think another thing worth acknowledging is that I'm quite certain that most of the people who play this game will have never heard of Githyanki before and will have no context for them. I already sort of knew about D&D adjacent stuff and this game was my first experience of them. Beyond that, I didn't even learn much about them from the game thus far. The majority of what I know about them came from these forums and from a D&D actual play podcast where Githyanki are recurring antagonists who have Australian accents. So having her not be a perfect representation of her people isn't exactly going to ruin things. Larian has already demonstrated their overall lack of care for the setting and associated things with it. So if their reasoning behind Lae'zel's character is just about loyalty to the source material, that comes off as disingenuous to me.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
And that extends to wanting her to be happy. And thus, wanting her to not be evil.
That is exactly the point of that real life example ...
We want her to be happy, but on our therms ... it smells little selfish to me.

She can be happy, if she would wield Silver Sword, and ride a Red Dragon ... then she would be happy ... and (at least for me) more importantly, she would still be herself. smile

But what we basicaly want for people that we are trying to shape ... and for Lae'zel quite litteraly ... is to change her into someone else, who would be easier for us to like.
And that is never healthy for anyone. wink

If i would want to take this to narrative extremes, imagine that she would indeed become nicer, diplomatic, kind, and the other stuff people wanted ... and then our adventure would end and she would return to her people ... what would await her there i wonder?
My guess? Death, probably fast and painfull.

The thing is, this is a story, which works on story logic. And by story logic, being evil simply CAN'T lead to happiness. Therefor wanting a character to become good isn't selfish, because the side of good is the only side that can really get genuine happiness.

Even in stories that trade in moral grayness and grittiness, the only people who are really shown as happy in their evil acts are usually psychopaths and genuine monsters. Otherwise they're shown occasionally enjoying the fruits of their evil labour, but any joy they find is usually painted as fleeting, as never satisfying them, and the things that do give them lasting happiness are things we associate with being good, like family, friendship, etc, and often their evil acts are done in service to those things, and will often end up putting those things in danger. Just look at breaking bad - his turn to evil ultimately destroyed his relationships and was shown to be self-destructive.

So yeah, in real life trying to reshape people is unhealthy. But by the logic of stories, trying to make others good is the right thing to do. Also in the narrative extreme of the Lae'zel changes during the adventure situation, the outcome would probably be that she abandons her people entirely after seeing them for what they are, rather than going back to them.

Last edited by Gray Ghost; 25/04/23 10:24 AM.