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"But consider that D&D evolved from tabletop wargaming, I always felt that the spell system was built on that concept and never evolved ..."

That is an interesting idea. Spells first appeared in the Fantasy Supplement to the original "Chainmail" tabletop wargame, which you can download from the internet archives. There were no spell slots at all, but there were five mage class levels which affected the potency and range of the spells as well as an ability to counter-spell. All the spells from Chainmail made it into D&D, and it's interesting to see where the basic D&D spells came from, and how little they have changed over the five editions. It might be cool to take that original Chainmail system and expand upon it, sort of like the warlock in NWN II but without all that evil stuff.

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That 100% would not work. Chainmail didn’t have spell slots because wargames are single encounter battles that typically last 3 to 4 turns. Role playing games are long format adventures where resource management plays a much greater role. If powerful spells aren’t a limited resource the game is just broken beyond fixing, because the solution to every problem becomes “fire another nuke until it’s dead.”

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Scaling cantrips is part of 5e and won't be removed in 2024 5e, or in bg3.

Coming from AD&D to 5e, cantrip scaling was an interesting new rule.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
That 100% would not work. Chainmail didn’t have spell slots because wargames are single encounter battles that typically last 3 to 4 turns. Role playing games are long format adventures where resource management plays a much greater role. If powerful spells aren’t a limited resource the game is just broken beyond fixing, because the solution to every problem becomes “fire another nuke until it’s dead.”

Powerful spells, agreed. What I was discussing was lesser functional spells being more wide use. As someone who has been playing a mage for 30 plus years, it becomes a joke that in every combat I am either a) throwing darts, b) ducking and covering, or c) VERY RARELY casting one of the 10 or so spells I have FOR THE DAY in the hopes that I don't need it for the next encounter.

I see no reason why mages can't throw minor spells in the same degree as fighters can attack. And given that a well equipped fighter of 5th level is getting 2-3 attacks per round and hitting for in excess of 10-15 points per hit, why can't wizards at least contribute to combat without having to carry around a sack of rocks or a bandolier full of pointy objects to supplement their casting?

Regarding Chainmail, you are right. No spell slots. So the original development of D&D adopted that. I am just saying that it hasn't continued to evolve to the same extent as other classes and abilities.

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The warlock spell system in NWN II certainly does work, 99.8%. There are no slots/day, every spell can be cast as many times as you want, even the high level ones. Unlimited invisibility, darkvision, charm person, high level shapechange into a cornugon, etc. Very much like Chainmail. Try it! I think some sort of combination of that and the ritual casting from 5E to balance out the non-combat functions would be cool.

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Originally Posted by The Spyder
Originally Posted by Warlocke
That 100% would not work. Chainmail didn’t have spell slots because wargames are single encounter battles that typically last 3 to 4 turns. Role playing games are long format adventures where resource management plays a much greater role. If powerful spells aren’t a limited resource the game is just broken beyond fixing, because the solution to every problem becomes “fire another nuke until it’s dead.”

Powerful spells, agreed. What I was discussing was lesser functional spells being more wide use. As someone who has been playing a mage for 30 plus years, it becomes a joke that in every combat I am either a) throwing darts, b) ducking and covering, or c) VERY RARELY casting one of the 10 or so spells I have FOR THE DAY in the hopes that I don't need it for the next encounter.

I see no reason why mages can't throw minor spells in the same degree as fighters can attack. And given that a well equipped fighter of 5th level is getting 2-3 attacks per round and hitting for in excess of 10-15 points per hit, why can't wizards at least contribute to combat without having to carry around a sack of rocks or a bandolier full of pointy objects to supplement their casting?

Regarding Chainmail, you are right. No spell slots. So the original development of D&D adopted that. I am just saying that it hasn't continued to evolve to the same extent as other classes and abilities.

I’m confused. Mages can throw around minor spells in the same degree that fighters attacks. Cantrips. The damage is a bit less, but then wizards can occasionally cast a full spell that can do quite a bit more damage, exert battlefield control, or perform any number of useful contributions to battle. The days of throwing sling stones or darts are already long over. Why are you carrying around a sack of rocks or a bandolier full of pointy objects instead of just learning Firebolt?

I just played a wizard in a campaign and the only time I ever didn’t cast a spell or cantrip every turn of a fight was one time when I cast banish on a powerful enemy and then ran away so I wouldn’t have concentration broken. Other than that, I was consistently pulling my weight in combat damage, even though my wizard was designed for primarily utility over battle.

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Originally Posted by Argyle
The warlock spell system in NWN II certainly does work, 99.8%. There are no slots/day, every spell can be cast as many times as you want, even the high level ones. Unlimited invisibility, darkvision, charm person, high level shapechange into a cornugon, etc. Very much like Chainmail. Try it! I think some sort of combination of that and the ritual casting from 5E to balance out the non-combat functions would be cool.

The NWN2 Warlock works because it only ever has a very short list of spells selected from a very small pool of spells. I wouldn’t want every class to operate like that. It would be ruinous to what makes clerics and wizards special.

The 5E spell slot system works great. It is functional, flexible, more easily balanced than a mana point system, easy to comprehend for new players, and demands players use foresight and planning to gauge their resource management. It allows a certain degree of rule homogeneity between all the various caster classes while also affording them distinct identities.

I’ve been DMing for about 25 years. I did not like the spell slot system from previous editions of D&D, but 5E nailed it.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
demands players use foresight and planning to gauge their resource management
Just roll a sorcerer, pick the spells that are always useful, and you will never have to worry about planning anything ever again.

Last edited by Brewman; 02/05/23 05:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by Brewman
Originally Posted by Warlocke
demands players use foresight and planning to gauge their resource management
Just roll a sorcerer, pick the spells that are always useful, and you will never have to worry about planning anything ever again.

That isn’t what resource management means.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Brewman
Originally Posted by Warlocke
demands players use foresight and planning to gauge their resource management
Just roll a sorcerer, pick the spells that are always useful, and you will never have to worry about planning anything ever again.

That isn’t what resource management means.
Resource management is something that only wizards have to worry about, and not even they really have to worry about it that much after 5E, especially given the abundance of party supplies.

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Originally Posted by Warlocke
I just played a wizard in a campaign and the only time I ever didn’t cast a spell or cantrip every turn of a fight was one time when I cast banish on a powerful enemy and then ran away so I wouldn’t have concentration broken. Other than that, I was consistently pulling my weight in combat damage, even though my wizard was designed for primarily utility over battle.

It is possible that you play higher level campaigns than I am familiar with. It is a rare thing for me to get to 8th level and I spend most of my time 3-5. In that area, the odd 1-3 damage and mid to short range generally doesn't add much more than darts. And the chance to cast something more substantial for battlefield control, etc... has to be rare and strategic. It certainly isn't an every battle thing, let alone an every round thing.

Either way, I like the scaling. Apparently you do not. We can agree to disagree. smile

Last edited by The Spyder; 02/05/23 06:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Brewman
Originally Posted by Warlocke
Originally Posted by Brewman
Originally Posted by Warlocke
demands players use foresight and planning to gauge their resource management
Just roll a sorcerer, pick the spells that are always useful, and you will never have to worry about planning anything ever again.

That isn’t what resource management means.
Resource management is something that only wizards have to worry about, and not even they really have to worry about it that much after 5E, especially given the abundance of party supplies.

We are talking about Dungeons and Dragons in general, not BG3. And all characters have resource management. Hit points are a resource. Potions are a resource. Spell slots, ki points, action surge, wild shape are all limited use resources.

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Originally Posted by The Spyder
Originally Posted by Warlocke
I just played a wizard in a campaign and the only time I ever didn’t cast a spell or cantrip every turn of a fight was one time when I cast banish on a powerful enemy and then ran away so I wouldn’t have concentration broken. Other than that, I was consistently pulling my weight in combat damage, even though my wizard was designed for primarily utility over battle.

It is possible that you play higher level campaigns than I am familiar with. It is a rare thing for me to get to 8th level and I spend most of my time 3-5. In that area, the odd 1-3 damage and mid to short range generally doesn't add much more than darts. And the chance to cast something more substantial for battlefield control, etc... has to be rare and strategic. It certainly isn't an every battle thing, let alone an every round thing.

Either way, I like the scaling. Apparently you do not. We can agree to disagree. smile

Oh wow, that’s some real Dungeons and Kobolds there. How long are these campaigns. Typically the games I play in go for about a year, and we end up around level 15 or so, so we get a more full spectrum of spell caster potential. I can definitely see how if you spend most of your time around levels 3 to 5 how wizards might seem underpowered. Meanwhile, my aforementioned wizard I played most recently got the final hit on the campaign big bad with a brutal level 6 casting of Immolation, so it’s definitely a different experience.

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Originally Posted by Brewman
Resource management is something that only wizards have to worry about, and not even they really have to worry about it that much after 5E, especially given the abundance of party supplies.
Rly? O_o
How so?

In my Experience, Paladins, Clerics, and Sorcerers spellslots were lost fastest ... and Warlocks obviously, but they also get the back pretty fast. laugh
It may have something to do with fact that Wizards, unlike the others mentioned, can renew some spellslots outside of combat.


I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Brewman
Resource management is something that only wizards have to worry about, and not even they really have to worry about it that much after 5E, especially given the abundance of party supplies.
Rly? O_o
How so?

In my Experience, Paladins, Clerics, and Sorcerers spellslots were lost fastest ... and Warlocks obviously, but they also get the back pretty fast. laugh
It may have something to do with fact that Wizards, unlike the others mentioned, can renew some spellslots outside of combat.
Don't know man, I never feel like I have issues with spellslots. In fact, if I feel like a spell isn't worth casting in a given situation I probably just use a ranged attack or something.
As a Warlock, for example, spellslots are used for Hex which is reusable and I just spam Edlritch Blast (its incredibly powerful).
As a Bard, I mostly play support so I mostly have healing and buffing spells with the occasional damage spell, and I use them as needed, and I basically never run out.
As a Cleric, I mostly use my spells for healing, or maybe when I feel like I'm unlucky (missing a lot) I throw a Bless spell around, or if I meet a tough enemy I use a Guiding Bolt, but I mostly use my clerics as meelee attackers who also happen to have some support spells. I usually don't run out of spellslots until I get to the tiefling camp, and I usually get there after clearing the ruins with the skeletons.
Sorcerers and Wizards are the only two classes that run out of spells relatively faster, and sorcerers can turn their sorcery points into spellslots and wizards have Arcane recovery. I usually use my spells strategically, so Gale will be throwing down some Dagger clouds and my Sorcerer will probably be blasting wet enemies with chromatic orbs. If they run out o spell slots I just let them use their crossbows and they are not half bad, and since cantrips also scale, frost bolt and fire bolt are not half bad and they can crit too.

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