Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Larian and WotC got some 'splainin to do

Ok so i searched the forums and couldnt find any other references to this so here we go.

End of BG2 if you dont romance Jaheira:
The events of the Bhaalspawn saga affected Jaheira deeply. It was her duty to protect the greater balance of things, but in the years to come, she found an increased portion of that fight occurring within her own mind. Witness to great change while in Charname's company, she had become acutely aware of how fleeting life was and how the loss of those she held dear ate away at her thoughts. In time, she would be known as a tireless champion of balance, one that sometimes acted in concert with the Harpers and sometimes did not. Always, however, she remained distant and guarded, never staying long in any one place. Jaheira would cross the realms thrice over, but she never did return to Tethyr or the Sword Coast.

Minsc ending leaves it open enough for what happened to him canonically, but Jaheria...

Is it the final phrase saying she never returned to the Sword Coast you think needs explaining? The rest doesn’t sound problematic. It would of course be wholly consistent with the approach of the series so far to just retcon her story, given she could die in a BG1 playthrough and still be alive at the start of BG2, and then die or leave Charname’s company before the end of BG2 and not get any epilogue at all. It seems perfectly open to Larian and WotC to establish a canon for Jaheira’s past hundred years that doesn’t perfectly match any specific BG1/BG2 events or indeed the BG2 novelisation (which I’ve never read) and I’d have no problem with that.

Ideally they’d leave enough undetermined, or decided through dialogue, that we can read many of our own BG2 playthroughs into her history, but given the in-universe time elapsed since the end of BG2 it’s not something that bothers me hugely. Especially if it’s just a matter of a relatively minor tweak to her epilogue ending, and having her return to the Sword Coast decades later and temporarily, rather than never, which is all that would strictly be required, though of course Larian may be more radical.

I’m guessing we might get cameos from at least one or two other BG1/2 companions, for whom events might also need to diverge from a strict reading of the BG2 epilogues. Perhaps they were written by Volo .

I think the epilogues have been brought up before but I don't remember where. I think a number of them have already been contradicted in other media, they always seemed a little less 'sticky' than most things to begin with. Did epilogues trigger for characters who didn't join you for the final confrontation?

It'll be interesting to see how Larian deals with the original games when our 'old companions' show up.

Remember we are still in early access, i think you'll have your answers in time.

who is to say it is the "real" Jaheira? JK

The 5th edition table top campaign, Murder in Baldur’s Gate, is a sequel to BG2 and sets up some of the events of this game, but does not follow the ending of Throne of Bhaal. Evidently the ToB ending cards don’t matter. 🤷🏻‍♂️

ToB apparently isn’t cannon. Don’t remember where I got that though.

Basically, to WOTC, everything is canon. So, effectively, nothing is canon, or at least nothing is canon in the traditional sense.

I personally find the “meh, fuck it,” attitude to canon quite refreshing, personally.

I place BG1, BG2, IWD1, and IWD2 in their own bubble continuity. My CHARNAME is the descendant of some of my IWD characters, and I ignore all other lore not found in the games.

Since there is a non-zero chance BG3 will conflict with my headcanon ending for BG2, I’ll just place that in a separate, what if continuity.

Forgotten Realms, and D&D lore and canon has been trash since 4th edition anyway, so I just don't care about it anymore. These games are about battles, colleccting the best loot and enjoying well written characters. Don't take this game as anything more then what it is: entertainment. If you disagree with the idea that tieflings are just people like you and me, kill them. I know that's what I'll do. I'm definitely not going to take moral lessons from a video game, I'm here fore nothin more then the pure enjoyment of the power trip

DnD video games are not canon. This has been stated a million times by WotC over the years.

Yeah, but the canon also isn’t canon.

"The moment you are at the game table, it’s no longer "our” Dragonlance or "our" Forgotten Realms, it’s your Forgotten Realms, it’s your Dragonlance. You’re now telling your stories in those settings. You’re not bound to the stories in the novels, as wonderful as they might be. We hope you take as much inspiration from them as it gives you joy to do so. The same goes for D&D video games or for D&D comics."

-Crawford


“Our studio treats D&D in much the same way that Marvel Studios treats its properties. The current edition of the D&D roleplaying game has its own canon, as does every other expression of D&D. For example, what is canonical in fifth edition is not necessarily canonical in a novel, video game, movie, or comic book, and vice versa. This is true not only for lore but art as well.

This approach allows R.A. Salvatore to write Drizzt novels without having to worry if his version of the Forgotten Realms perfectly matches what we do in the roleplaying game. It means that a D&D video game can take elements from a series of novels and present them in a way that serves the game’s needs, rather than adhering to the sequence of events chronicled in the novels. Creatively, it’s liberating. This approach also acknowledges that different media have unique challenges and requirements.

Every edition of the roleplaying game has its own canon as well. In other words, something that might have been treated as canonical in one edition is not necessarily canonical in another. For example, the succubus was classified as a devil in fourth edition, even though it had been a demon in previous editions.

It can also be said that every campaign that’s ever been run in any of our published settings has its own canon. Your version of the Forgotten Realms has its own canon, which doesn’t make it any less valid than anyone else’s version. Elminster might be a lich in your Forgotten Realms campaign. Elminster might be a miniature giant space hamster in mine—both are acceptable and awesome.

Key to our approach is the belief that the story belongs to the DM and the players, not us. We make a conscious effort to preserve as many opportunities as possible for DMs to play with their own ideas. That’s why we don't produce sourcebooks that spool out a ton of backstory. The DM or player remains the ultimate arbiter of what’s true in their expressions of D&D.”

https://dnd.wizards.com/news/dnd-canon

I genuinely think that for a tabletop game, this is exactly the right way to view and approach canon. So long as everything lines up in the actual game books (or anything that doesn't line up does so on purpose) then stuff outside of those really shouldn't have to be tightly bound to canon.

While i absolutely appreciate the conversation around canon and the Forgotten Realms i am specifically referring to the fact that BG 3 is canonically set in the BG1-2 world and timeline. It is not a spiritual successor it is a direct successor, they took great pains to call this out and i think from what we have seen to date they have honored their word on this mostly and have done a good job. Like i said they should explain the delta, they do a good job of tiebacks and explanations of things between bg 1 and bg 2, but to me this is a potential miss, of course we haven't met Jaheira yet so she may speak to it but i hope they account for the potential discrepancy in some way.

I mean, did you read the novelization? Jaheira dies.

"When Angelo asked for Sarevok's thoughts or resentment on this new information, Sarevok replied with magic spells instead of words, and Jaheira behind Abdel is his target. After Sarevok escaped, Abdel didn't go after him, he screamed in grief while looking into Jaheira's lifeless eyes even though Angelo yelled at Abdel to go get a priest to heal her."

Unless Larian plans to do save import from BG2 establishing cannon will be rather difficult.

Your game is its own canon, any sequel to those games will need to deal with that.

Making the Bhaalspawn Abdel Adrian is one option, but probably one of the least popular, nobody wants their character put in the dustbin by a sequel. More likely we might get some dialogue giving us a chance to set some particulars on the Bhaalspawn with the events of the first games so far removed from the current game as to make them unimportant. I'm wondering if they'll avoid the topic all together, but Bhaal does seem to be part of the main plot.

I bet you $100 they won’t account for it at all. It’s just an epilogue card. Minsc’s has already been officially retconned, so disregarding Jaheria’s is pretty much a given.

WoTC's current policy in regards to canon is absolute trash. Every table has it's own unique canon. Hell, even Ed Greenwood's home games are pretty divergent from 'official' realms from what I have heard. It was never as if WoTC was going to send the Pinkertons to your home if the Spellplague never existed in your personal campaign or whatever. Certainly WoTC stated intention to not give a damn if their modern releases are even remotely compatible with stuff from prior editions enables any particular 'freedom' at home games. If anything it makes any sort of consistency at home games that much more challenging since you and your players could come to the table with drastically different expectations on the setting and lore depending on when they started playing and what material they are familiar with.

I mean heck, imagine a hypothetical Haer'Dalis cameo in BG III. What would he look like? I can imagine people being dissapointed/confused/surprised no matter what direction Larian took it, since 2e Teiflings were completely different than the ones we see in 5e and in BG III currently.

BG III is currently in a weird place because of a multitude of discrepancies like that. It's impossible for BG III to be faithful to BG I & II and also be faithful to 5e, which whatever WoTC purports, is important to them.


As for Minsc and Jaheria, lets be honest, particularly in regards to the former, their presence in the game is somewhat of a stretch.

this or give us what PoE 2 gave us, an option to select what happened at every critical moment main and DLCs, gave me a very unique gameplay instead of what i got... the option is tucked away at the main menu if your curious where it is.