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Joined: May 2023
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in tabletop D&D when compared to the pact of the fiend the great old one warlock falls woefully short, thought shield and entropic ward are painfully bad abilities and just a glance at the extended spell list will show you that at 5th level one get fireball and stinking cloud and the other gets clairvoyance and sending.

on the tabletop this means that great old ones are better in out of combat situations like translating using awoken mind or using illusions to trick NPCs but in Baldur's gate three the great old ones are just a bad subclass that exists to trap new players into a weaker character.

the player is actively punished for choosing this class. Fireball is one of the best spells in the games and the old ones just do not have anything close to that powerful.

to summarize. great old ones were made for the tabletop and cannot be simply copied into Baldur's gate. their abilities are made specifically for situations that just do not come up in the game like sending or clairvoyance which just straight up don’t exist in Baldur's gate.

My hope is that great old ones warlock just becomes a reskin of the fiend especially because Wyll just outshines the old ones protagonist every encounter.

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I wouldn't say that Great Old One warlock abilities are inherently worse than Fiend warlock in tabletop, they are just completely different playstyles. I agree that several of their abilities and spells don't lend themselves to video games though.

However, with the set up of the game with mind flayers the narrative flavor potential is through the roof! I would like to see this subclass really lean into its psychic/alien roots and maybe even strengthen some of the characters tadpole abilities. They've already added "mortal reminder" instead of "awakened mind" at level one, so I'm sure they'll think of some interesting changes for the full release.

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Interessting opinion. I love playing warlocks (or multiclass combinations of warlocks and other charisma classes) in DnD and every time I pick Wyll I feel as if someone tried to create a weak warlock. I guess it's just a matter of playstyles.
But to be honest, combat in this game isn't really difficult anyway. So even if some subclass is weaker than another, you'll still be able to complete the game without issues.

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You repeat a lot that "its weaker" ...
But could you provide some specific examples?

What do you do so it feels so weak?

Since ... maybe im wrong, i didnt play GOO Warlock on last patch (yet) ... but i dont think clairvoyance, nor sending even is in game. O_o

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 09/05/23 12:42 PM.

I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. frown
Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are! frown
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Dear RagnarokCzD

Sorry I did not put any specific examples in my original post I mainly wanted to get my point across briefly. I would be happy to provide some examples.

before we even get to spells, we have to talk about the class feature Mortal Reminder mortal reminder only triggers when you get a critical hit something that is already rare but despite of what it says in the description it only effects the creature you hit not any of the surrounding enemies. So, what is the effect? they become frightened for the next turn assuming they didn’t die due to the critical hit. the fiend on the other hand gets their charisma modifier plus their health worth of temporary HP every time the kill an enemy so not only does it trigger way more often, but it also does way more.

at first level spells the two classes are well balanced with fiend gaining burning hands and command while GOO gets dissonant whispers and Tasha’s hideous laughter however the problem begins at second level spells where fiend get blindness/deafness and scorching ray while GOO locks get detect thoughts and phantasmal force.

in the tabletop phantasmal force is a powerful illusion spell that I personally used even at 12th level but in BG3 it only does 1d6 every time the creature is attacked unless it makes an intelligence save. to illustrate why this is such a bad spell remember dissonant whispers when upcast to the same level as phantasmal force does 4d6 damage meaning in order for phantasmal force to be AS EFFECTIVE as dissonant whispers the creature would need to be attacked four times in addition to the casting of phantasmal force. best case scenario if you cast this spell and then your entire party attacks the creature you could still only get 3 more attacks in (assuming one attack per party member) so the enemy still would have taken less damage then if you had cast dissonant whispers and now they have a chance to not only make a saving throw but also break your concentration. worst case scenario they pass the int saving throw or another enemy breaks your concentration and now you have wasted half of your spells in that encounter.

with all that you would think that with all that talk about dissonant whispers it would be a powerful spell, but no while deals 4d6 damage at level two shatter (a spell either subclass can take) deals 3d8 damage in a ten-foot radius both spells have saving throws. while there is a slight advantage to dissonant whispers when facing a single opponent given that warlocks have an extremely limited number of spells they can chose and most of the enemies are goblins or other creatures that come in groups you are better off taking shatter over dissonant whispers.

After much adventuring we got to level five. You are right sending, and clairvoyance are not and likely, will not be added to the game so what unique spells do GOO locks get at max level? NONE you can chose a few from the normal list but there are no unique spells at level 5. Compare this to the fiend who gets FIREBALL, one of the best spells in the game and stinking cloud or some of the spells from the normal list.

Finally, there is a magic item that gives you a bonus action when you attack with a fire non cantrip spell. the fiend can use burning hands, scorching ray, fire ball and hellish rebuke but GOO locks can only use hellish rebuke which is a reaction, while I have yet to test whether it still gives you a bonus action on your next turn at best you need to wait to be attack in order to use that magic item and at worst it is totally useless for GOO locks

in conclusion it is not that I feel weak it’s that I always feel like a worse version of fiend warlock. I really like GOO locks I think the whole Lovecraftian vibe is amazing for role-playing but even in the tabletop game the subclass feels half-baked but in BG3 the class have all its best features either removed or nerfed there just is not any redeeming qualities to an already difficult subclass. It also makes me pessimistic about the final release of BG3. The newer classes have got a lot of attention with special class specific magical items and mechanics.

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Dear Siege664

unfortunately i cannot share your optimism mortal reminder didn't replace awoken mind it replaced literally nothing. for two years laian just didn't have anything as the subclass feature and that was only fixed in patch nine. speaking of a 5% chance to frighten enemies after you have already landed a critical hit it is a terrible feature compared to dark ones blessing not to mention that in practice it only effects the creature that you hit so it only becomes frightened if it doesn't die from the critical hit already

as for narrative potential larian has made no indication that they plan to do anything in terms of "narrative flavor" regarding GOO locks after over two years. it is in my opinion entirely unreasonable to believe that any thing will be done in the next 3 months especially given the fact that if you google "larian studios great old ones" the first result is this very thread.

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A reskin of the Fiend sub-class would be rather disappointing, frankly.

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Dear Ignatius

I am also disappointed but with the release date in only a few months and Larian proving themselves to either being unwilling or unable to fix the GOO locks it is the easiest solution that we can expect


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