Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Speculation on what Races and Classes might be announced at Panel From Hell

I believe the suggestion about immersion is that it wouldn't make sense to introduce exotic races just for PCs. If they're in the game at all then we should also see them represented among NPCs. Which seems a reasonable enough position to take in general, though there could be some races where it makes sense to think of Tav as the only local representative due to some special circumstances.

But then, either we see NPCs of "exotic" races around the world and so, for those who find their presence in Faerun implausible given their understanding of the lore, this could break their immersion. Or our PC is the only example of their race so players who choose not to play that race aren't bothered by it, but then we need character models and animation that will be used only for the PC which doesn't seem very efficient.

That seems clear enough, so I don't think there's any need to require folk to explain those points further.

Beyond that, people are perfectly entitled to prefer not to see races they consider implausible in the game. Just as others are perfectly entitled to want any race in it either as PCs, NPCs or both. As to which preference is most justified, I think we might be at the agree to disagree point as I'm not seeing the discussion moving forward constructively. Everyone is welcome to say what they prefer and why, but let's take care that we're doing that rather than challenging others' preferences. Unless it's clear they're up for that, and even then that we do it in a spirit of curiosity rather than criticism.

I'm also not seeing much value in speculating further about what Larian's cost/benefit analysis of including more non-PHB races might have been. We'll only find out the result of it when they tell us, which will hopefully be reasonably soon.

In the meantime, I'm perfectly happy to let us continue to speculate wildly about anything, but only if we're having fun doing it. This is starting to feel more like an argument, though, and let's not do that!

I’ve played Dungeons and Dragons for almost 30 years (🤮 I’m feeling old) but I’ve never cared enough about the Forgotten Realms to be bothered by the shifting canon. It’s not that great of a setting in the first place as far as I’m concerned. I don’t see a problem with introducing new races. The more the merrier.

In my personal setting, Sylvan Elves are so saturated with Feywild magic that they can look like whatever the players wants. Fauns, frog people, animated trees, super-dense gasses in a vaguely human shape, anything goes.

If that is true ...
Then i purely disagree.

This game dont cover even 1% of Faerun ...
Therefore opposite is corect, for rare races, it makes perfect sense to not meet any NPC of same race as our Tav will be.

Quite honestly (and feel free to corect me if im wrong) i cant help the feeling that even Dragonborn are quite rare in the City of Baldur's Gate!
As far as i know, they tend to live a little more North/East ... and also quite far from this particular place.
So, personaly i expect at best up to 10NPCs of this race.


Question is if efficiency is even concidered.

Personaly i dont see much reason even in giving Elves their own animations.
And yet ... they have them.

Also, some recyclation is allways possible imho.
If you want Warforged to move like a construct ... well, we have Bernard (and constructs in city, im no animator, but i believe they should be able to just scale it down) ...
If you want Lizardfolk to move like a reptile ... well, there are Dragonborn ...
Not really sure about Tabaxi ... but arent there some spells that allow caster to grow claws? I only remember one Druid cantrip, but that was not from PHB.

I should perhaps have made clearer that the above (and now quoted below) was my moderator ruling on the topic, and in the first paragraphs I was merely summarising the argument that had been made in the hope of promoting mutual understanding, and neither endorsing it, objecting to it, nor seeking any further discussion on it.

My main points were (a) no more challenges to peoples' positions or preferences on this topic unless they've indicated they're up for that and it's conducted in a spirit of curiosity rather than criticism (I had already said what I personally think about introduction of new races earlier in the thread and have nothing more to add), and (b) let's not argue any further about what factors Larian are likely to think relevant or conclusive when deciding what new races to implement (as opposed to reasons for our own theories and preferences) given the debate on this point here is unconstructive.

I should also add, (c) let's recognise when we've made our preference and position clear and not continue to belabour it, even if others still disagree.

In that case, you could aswell just lock it here ... since no futher debate is possible.

That is not my point. We are free to continue speculating on what Larian will introduce and to say what we would like to see and why. I just want us to be careful about continuing to directly challenge others rather than talk about our own views unless it's clear they're up for it and we do it in a constructive way, and to avoid arguing round and round on the same points that have no means of resolution or restating our own positions over again when we've already made our points. I hope, if we stop and think about it, most of us should be able to work out where fun speculation and discussion ends and pointless argument and needling starts, and keep ourselves the right side of the line when I've signalled we might be at risk of crossing it.

And as always, I am open to challenge on points of moderation but please do it privately by PM not in thread.

Politely asking for clarification in thread about what I am ruling in and out is actually fine, but if you're unsure about whether what you want to say is a polite request or could be considered a challenge then again private is best. I am always willing to add a clarification or correction publicly if it's privately established I might have been unclear.

PS And just because English is ambiguous on this point, it's argument in the sense of an overly confrontational exchange of diverging or opposite views that I'd prefer us to be careful not to take too far, not argument in the sense of considering or putting forward the reasons why we think or don't think one thing or another. And I know "overly confrontational" can be subjective, which is why I am suggesting actively looking for cues that the other person is still up for debate when we start venturing into that potentially grey area. I hope this is fairly commonsense, but if anyone would appreciate further guidance or has any issues then again, please do feel free to PM me.

I am ok with exotic races IF and only IF they are for player charecters only and the story backing them up was that they were already prisoners in the mindflayer ship from a previous jump before the jump to the FR and the Hells.

I would love to have one of my PCs as a Tabaxi, but there should not be any NPC in the game UNLESS there is a valid back story. No towns or citizens, etc…

Since we touched this topic, can a mindflayer ship jump to other universes / settings? I mean, Toril (and Faerun on it), Great Wheel with Sigil @ the center and all of the inner / outer and upper / lower planes are one single Universe within Forgotten Realms setting?

If we talk about other settings like Dark Sun, or Greyhawk, or Eberron - are those different Universes, with different cosmology? Or they are just different Prime Material Planes within the same Great Wheel Cosmology?

To make it more simple, is there Baator (Nine Hells) in, let's say, Dark Sun?

My understanding is that the City of Sigil connects them all.

It's complicated. Dark Sun, Eberron, and Dragonlance were basically designed to be standalone. Eberron was designed with a radically different cosmology/multiverse at the core of its setting, Darksun is technically a part of the greater 'multiverse' but essentially inaccessible. Dragonlance is superficially similar in a number of ways but was not intended to cross over with other settings by its creator (to the point that they infamously killed off Lord Soth when the powers that be decided to shove him into Ravenloft, well, to put it lightly-'campy horror setting' was not part of their vision for the character)

Other settings are basically fine with crossovers, and other material planes etc-including other campaign settings are part of the 'multiverse' of the setting. Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms for example get along rather well, and IIRC it's canon that Mordekainen and Elminster know each other, for example.


Planescape and Spelljammer were designed to connect different settings. Basically 'bridge settings'

WoTC/TSR basically can't help themselves and have put cameos/little crossovers like the aforementioned 'Soth in Ravenloft' example-despite it going against the nature of the setting and in some cases, the express desires of the creators of said settings.

Modern Day WoTC is a whole nother animal though. Basically fell in love with consolidating everything under one umbrella in their 'multiverse'. It's a big corporate-driven 'brilliant idea' to consolidate their settings in an explicit manner, regardless of how much it ends up retconning/screwing up fundamental aspects of their settings. Dragonlance and Eberron got hit pretty hard in that regard with IIRC Fizban's Guide to Dragons. I'm not a fan of it. It tells me that the mindset that brought about the Spellplague because Forgotten Realms was 'bloated' is still alive and well. D&D is a great tool for building unique and exciting settings, and the idea that they all have to bend to fit into the same mold is artistically void IMO. That's why I'm not keen on seeing stuff like Warforged in Toril or Dragonborn on Greyhawk.

Maybe im missing somethong there ...
But as far as i know, there are no Dragonborn in Dragonlance ... those creatures i remember are called Draconian, and they are magicaly created artificial beings that turn into stone, and aometimes explode after death.
I wouldnt bet on it, but i have feeling they dont even have breath weapon. O_o

Yeah, they were obviously inspired by them. I'm afraid they'll always be 'discount draconians' that were shoved into Toril due to the popularity of Dragonlance to me.

Agreed, they were clearly an attempt to bring them in after WotC decided to close the Dragonlance setting.

Again, if someone wants to play one that's great but I want to preserve their interesting and rare status In a world of gnomes, humans, elves, dwarves etc there's a something really exotic

"I've heard that you have to prove yourself worthy and that Bahmut himself is involved with the transformation "

Well, yeah ... inspired.
Still not the same thing tho.

I mean ... our immersion dont broke when we meet an Elf, a Dwarf, or a Goblin (yes i know Tolkien called them Orcs) since they are from Middle-earth ... do we?

As an aside, I didn't actually realise until embarassingly recently (ie just now when I checked my facts in the One Wiki to Rule them All before posting here), that for Tolkein "goblin", which he used more frequently in The Hobbit, was just a translation of "orc". I always thought that they were related, or that goblins were a subrace of orcs for Tolkein. Whereas I think FR goblins and orcs are quite distinct, and though there are other goblinoids in the Realms, orcs don't count amongst them? Though Tolkein's goblin/orcs do seem to have more in common, physically at least, with FR orcs than they do with goblins. Not that - clearly! - I'm an expert in either Middle Earth or FR lore.

They even have origins that are obviously inspired by draconians. They really weren't trying to hide it at the time.


And how are those, elves, goblins and dwarves used? The Forgotten Realms is a setting where such races as tabaxi, Aarakocra, wemic etc tend to be rather rare, either mostly confined to specific locales or well, just plain rare to begin with. Fire-breathing dragon-men are-I hope we can agree-just a little bit 'more special' than bipedal cats, yet they are used in a manner opposite of sparingly. Even the official stats, last time I checked made them one of the rarest of the player races, which makes a lot of sense considering they have only been on the plane for a little more than 100 years. So yeah, I'd say they do stick out like a sore thumb.

And again, there's also the context of how they were inserted into the setting via just mashing them into there via the widely disliked Spellplague. So y'know, people are going to look at the design cribbed from the draconians, the 'we designed this race to be paladins'-level worldbuilding and that will color their opinions.

I find out just now.
Sice i never read in original, i thought he just allways used the word Orc.

(Its transalted to "skřeti" in my language ... in all books, movies, games, etc.)

As far as i know, yes ...
Orcs in Forgotten Realms are more simmilar to Warcraft Orcs (but i dunno wich inspired wich ... nor i think it matters), basicaly in both settings they are just Aliens from completely different planet, that come to main setting via portals long time ago (much longer in DnD tho).
Wich BTW apply on Goblins (resp. Goblinoids) aswell ... they just come from different words, in different times.

As for why Orcs dont count as Goblinoid ...
According to this reddit debate it seems like all variety of Goblinoids come from same ancestor ... aswell as all variety of Orcs do ... but their ancient ancestors (ergo their races basicaly) were both made by different gods.

But to make things even more complicated, they are geneticaly compatible and capable of crossbreed reproduction.

But i digressed.

---

Uhm ... what do you mean?

Can you share some source?
I have tryed googling, but didnt find anything.

I dunno ...
Among humans? Certainly ...

But concidering that we have here:
big humans, small humans, big elves, small elves, aliens from different world, smaller aliens from different world, yet even completely different aliens from different world that may come even from different time ...
crossbreeds between humans and elves, crossbreeds between humans and those aliens, crossbreeds between humans and angels, crossbreeds between humans and demons, crossbreeds between humans and ELEMENTALS?!? ...
bipedal cats, bipedal lizards, bipedal lions, bipedal bulls, bipedal owls, bipedal birds, another but completely different bipedal birds, bipedal turtles, bipedal elephans, ...
And thing that have lower part of their body like horse, spider, or front part of goat ...

And im quite sure i have left many others.

I mean ... Faerun is certainly diverse ...
And if you feel like Dragon-Human is the weirdest thing you can meet here ... i mean no offense, but i feel like you didnt seen much so far.

Funny you mentioned this ...
As i read about Orcs (mentioned abowe) ... would you concidered their integration to be anyhow better?

I mean ... something happened, portals opened, and *poof* here they are.
I dont see much difference from Dragonborn to be honest.

I mean ... its fine to dislike some race in fantasy setting ... no matter your reason (or even absence of any as the matter of fact) ...
If i ever give you the feeling that i suggest that everyone should love everything, then i asure you:
I never tryed to say anthing like that.

Im just trying to understand the reason behind not wanting them in game ... and honestly "i just dont like them" is perfectly valid one to me.

WOW!
I'd never had expected "skřeti" to be used for orcs/goblins.
In my language "skrzaty" are closer to gnomes, kawaii dwarves, Santa's Elves ... you put out a saucer of milk to bribe them into not peeing in your soup ...

As to Faerun orcs and goblins - as once quipped by a an ancient, supposedly wise but doubtlessly senile Grandmaster of an order of Space Fist Wizards - "always in motion the lore".
In one edition will be same, in next edition will be unrelated, then will be distant cousins and so long and so forth ...

We have this too, but those we call "skřítci". xD
Its a mess.

I said earlier that I would not want any cat people in game bcos they're not Canon... well I had some time for research and actually found out that Tabaxi ARE from Forgotten Realms.. they live in Maztica, and apparently there is a tribe in Chult as well. And their lore goes way back to 1st edition... Absolutely did not know that, I was sure Tabaxi are some homebrew race.