Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Help Tips & Tricks Thorn Whip - how useful?

Studying the abilities of classes I do not usually play I noticed the Thorn Whip Cantrip.
On paper it looks very attractive, as enemy archers and casters seem to love to scramble atop various perches to rain death from above on my party
Hence I imagined using the Cantrip to bring them down to my level - losing a few HP in the tumble too.

What do more experienced players say?
Or is this covered in the big SHOVE thread, even though this is more of a PULL?

Would access to this Cantrip merit a non-melee party member to take up a sideline career in Druidism at lvl 4?

The range is short for Thorn Whip, and its effect doesn't drag them far, so its ability to control the battlefield is limited. I did use it on a couple of occasions to drag a unit into a hostile area effect, but never to do anything too interesting. In this game, the cantrip does serve as a ranged attack for a class that has none of the ranged weapons its proficient in implemented yet though. But, Produce Flame is better for that purpose, hands down. Maybe someone else has had better luck with it.

Agreed, I think you really nailed the core of the problem. Druids - as currently implemented - are weak on Ranged attacks. Slings are not in game yet, and they are not proficient in bows and crossbows unless they choose elf.

Thorn Whip is fun, but underwhelming because of the short range. Produce Flame is the better ranged attack, and Shillelagh, and Guidance are essential Cantrips - and you will only have 3 of them until the game fully releases due to the level cap.

I agree with Ignatius and Blackheifer. Thorn Whip is great fun when it works, either to drag an enemy off a ledge or just into melee range, and it’s also handy as a ranged cantrip that nevertheless isn’t disadvantaged by use in melee range. But given the short range, the occasions where you can pull anyone off a high enough ledge to do serious fall damage are rare, Produce Flame is better as a ranged cantrip (unnecessarily fiddly UI aside), most Land Druids, especially, are going to want Shillelagh, and Guidance is more generally useful (at least unless you have another character like SH who can cast it or the amulet available in EA).

I had Thorn Whip and Produce Flame cantrips for my Moon Druid, as Shillelagh was more or less useless given her rubbish close-range survivability outside Wildshape and I’d got bored in other playthroughs of spamming Guidance, and a few times managed to drag an enemy into melee range using Thorn Whip then use wildshape, or got stuck in human form within melee range and it was worth using it to finish off an enemy rather than disengaging. I enjoyed having the cantrip for those occasions, and would definitely pick those options again for my Moon Druid run in full release, but I can’t imagine it being worth dipping into Druid specifically to get, so you’d need to be a class that would get additional benefits from Druid multiclass. I don’t know enough about 5e multiclassing to know if there might be something that would work. You would need decent wisdom to avoid missing too much …

Another idea that looked better on paper then in action.
Thank you Good People!

A bit of a necro, but the one thing I remember most about this cantrip is just how often it misses. At 16 wisdom. Most of the time, you end up giving up on better damage and then it doesn't even land

Range not-AOE spells use WiS/INT/CHA, and not DEX, to hit?
I'm fairly sure using WIS to hit was a special ability? Or feat? Or something like that ...

Doesn't matter. Also had 16 dex unfortunately

I just struggle to think of a class where sacrificing the damage is worth it. Or it just hits better than cantrips you may already have. Maybe some niche build. The accuracy on pulling enemies down is infuriatingly bad. In this game, we have bombs that push/pull enemies, which can cover all niche situations you find yourself in. Then there is thorn whip, a B list spell in the druid arsenal lol. It feels bad to play

The Die Gods must hate you :P

Possibly. I'd advocate just making a land druid and trying to use it as much as possible. If you enjoy it, that's what matters most. It infuriates me too much to watch my druid fumble another thorn whip... while everyone else does something that actually helped

That's my feeling about Shadowheart at times ... throwing bottles and Healing is what she can be reliably expected to bring to a fight.

Okay, with huge caveats given I'm new to 5e for BG3, and subject to correction by one of our 5e expert forum members, all spell attack rolls use the modifier for the character's spellcasting attribute, whatever it is, so WIS for druids, INT for wizards, CHA for sorcerors, etc. And you get 1 modifier point for each 2 attribute points above 10 (minus below), so +1 for 12 WIS, +2 for 14 and so on. Then you also add your proficiency bonus, which is linked to your overall level starting at 2, going up to 3 at level 5, 4 at level 9 and 5 at level 13 (if we get that far). It also looks as though spell attack rolls get bonuses from high ground and advantage from, eg, hiding, though that's just from looking at game (if you hover over the links in the combat log they'll give you more info about the attack roll and how it was calculated) and I've no idea if that's per RAW.

But 5e ranged attack spells aren't like, eg ranged touch attacks in Pathfinder which I've recently had to get my head around, and don't require DEX so this can safely be dumped for your spellcaster, except for its AC and saving throw bonuses, or unless you want to multi-class into a class that requires it (if we can do that on release!).

Note, btw, that not even all damage spells have attack rolls, some like SH's Sacred Flame cantrip or FIreball require a saving throw from the target instead, or even auto hit like magic missile. Saving throw attributes are given in the spell tooltip (so DEX for sacred flame and fireball) and will be against the spell's difficulty class, which I think is the caster's spellcasting ability modifier + proficiency bonus + 8. (Not sure if that base 8 can ever change!) So for a druid, the spell's DC will always be determined by their WIS, though depending on the type of save the target may use their DEX to calculate whether they avoid the effect. Spell tooltips will help make clear whether they use attack rolls or saving throws, and if the latter what sort.

I hope that is helpful. And also correct!

Correct, with Thorn Whip it's a melee spell attack against the target - so it would use Wisdom for Druid, and Intelligence for Artificer, or Charisma for Warlock (if they chose Pact of the Tome).

Thank you, @RedQueen and @Blackheifer.
I am now trying to wrap my mind about those rules - Thorn Whip is a Melee Attack? - 5ed is hard!

Well, it's a melee spell (it might be best not to think of it as a melee attack which I think has a technical meaning in 5e when it comes to things like fighters' Extra Attack). That is, it's one that doesn't have any targetting disadvantage when cast within melee distance of an enemy, unlike, say Hex or Fire Bolt or shooting them with an arrow. For me that's it's main selling point as a cantrip. It has a bit of range but the flexibility to cast up close if needed. Of course, if an enemy is in their face many druids will want to get their Shillelaghs out instead, but still.

As an aside, it's not clear from its tooltip that Thorn Whip is considered a melee spell for the purposes of determining disadvantage at close quarters, unlike, say that for Shocking Grasp which clearly says "Melee", as the tooltip only gives the range. I personally only figured this out from guessing and testing it (you can see when you hover over a target for a spell any sources of advantage or disadvantage including "Target is too close"), but feel like the game should make it clear. I'm not sure whether it's the only spell that has this ambiguity being a melee spell with a bit of range, but it's the only one I've noticed so far).

It's... it's really not. It's by far the simplest and most straight forward d&D system we've had, and it's far simpler than the mechanics of most video games.

- Everyone has a proficiency bonus, and this is fixed, unmodifiable, and is based on your character level: it starts at +2, and maxes out at +6. It's the exact same for everybody, universally.

- When you use something on an enemy, the spell or class feature will tell you whether you are making an attack roll, or the enemy makes a saving throw. Every feature, every spell, every *thing* tells you this.

- If you are making an attack roll, it uses your class ability (stat): wizards use intelligence, Sorcerers use charisma, etc.; each class tells you what its core ability is. The attack roll is: d20, plus your class ability modifier, plus your proficiency bonus.
- If the enemy is making a saving throw, it rolls against your Save DC, using the ability that your spell or feature tells them to use to resist it (trip attack tell the enemy to make a Strength Saving Throw, for example). Your DC is: 8, plus your class ability modifier, plus your proficiency bonus.

That's really all there is to it... it's actually very simple.

Thorn Whip has you make a Melee Spell Attack; if you have a hostile creature within 5 feet of you, you will have disadvantage, as with any melee attack. The actual reach of the spell or feature is irrelevant, as is its target. ((Niara had a brain silly moment)) this means that if you attack a Prone target with it from its maximum range, you won't (or shouldn't) get the disadvantage normally associated with making ranged attacks against prone targets - but you also will not get the advantage that you normally get from attacking prone creatures in melee, because that benefit only applies when you are right next to the target; the type of attack isn't actually relevant for that.

Larian's tooltips *still* leave a lot to be desired, even at this stage of development, and it's appalling considering all the information they needed to provide for them was already pre-made, pre-written and pre-formatted for them in advance by the ruleset itself... All they had to do was use the spell cards as they exist already in 5e, already there and made for them, specifically for the purpose... but they've decided not to, and made their own, and failed to communicate the necessary information properly.

The above, but with the following changes:
The crossed out section applies to Ranged Attacks (from a weapon or a spell), not Melee. I assume you just had a brain fart (or alternatively, I'm wrong and having one now).

Yea, I had an over-tired brain dumb, my mistake. Sorry about that ^.^

Ha, it helps to think in terms of what is your melee spell attack and what is your ranged spell attack for tactical purposes.

For example:

Druids

Your Melee Spell Attack is Thorn Whip/ Your Ranged spell attack is Produce Flame

Clerics:
(skipping cantrips because they are underpowered and not really worth using)

Your Melee Spell Attack is Inflict Wounds/ Your Ranged Spell attack is Guiding Bolt

Wizards/Sorcerers:

Your Melee Spell attack is Shocking Grasp* / Your Ranged Spell Attack is Flame Bolt/Chill Touch/ Freezing Ray

The key is - as Niara and MrFuji3 mentioned - that ranged attacks are at Disadvantage when you have an enemy within 5 feet. So you either need to move away to use a ranged attack or switch to a melee Spell Attack.

* Shocking Grasp is an absolutely essential spell and it's criminal that it isn't a default choice. It's melee range spell attack. Does 1d8 electrical damage, Advantage against opponents with metal armor, it removes the enemy reaction so you can run away without an opportunity attack, it can be used to electrify water surfaces. Just, incredibly useful spell.

p.s. I need to mention that Magic Missile is a ranged spell but there is no attack associated with it, so it can be used at close or far range without penalty. Really the best spell for breaking concentration in enemy spellcasters.

p.p.s. - Having spent years with 2.5e and 3.5e I can say that 5e is the best D&D system ever developed. It makes the game so much easier to play by simplifying so much. 3.5e was a nightmare to DM as you had to look up so many special conditions that would influence dice rolls and it led to a lot of bickering if you missed one of the special conditions after a turn had passed. It's a lot more flexible as well, giving players a lot more agency to create their own subclasses and hombrews.