Larian Studios Forums Beyond Divinity (English) General Azeroth and Aleroth.

Azeroth and Aleroth.
There is no shame in trying to learn, and humans had been learning for thousands of years through mimics.

Blizzard is in fact a pioneer of deeply analyzed fantasy worlds, rifts and Orcs.
Since War Craft (dos) and the subsequent fabulous graphics of sequels Blizzard has definitely set a foot in the world of electronic gaming. Star Craft too is not to be overlooked. The main feature of Blizzard’s philosophy seems to be a construction of a linear set of acts to form a storyline if there was any such storylines at all. On the other hand there is a sequence of level-based acts each of which begins with a mission.
No doubt that Blizzard had reached the level which the technology allows today.

There is no coincidence that Azeroth and Aleroth have only one letter to distinguish the two names. Now Larian Studios have produced Divinity and needs no more game-milk to suckle on.

Now take another game, which is made by Eurocom Development under the title Sphinx and the shadow of Set; Characters are very carefully designed and the game is basically an adventure.

Let us make a stop right here and analyze the future of gaming under a rather new class. There are multitudes of confusing classifications in which we read RPG with different prefixes but what do we, the players, expect in a role-playing-game.
We certainly need an adventure to play and have fun, an adventure that challenges our wits and our extraordinary skill of tracking clues. So when we call our favorite game a role-playing-game we need to put some emphasis on the role; what role?
Hacking and slashing summarizes the philosophical aspect of the struggle, but is that all, definitely not. A role playing game must contain an adventure created on top of a well written story. Adventures must contain a factor of risk, the risk of confronting powerful foes and the risk of facing unfathomable riddles. The foes should be mainly the guardians of great secrets. The greatness of the secrets is not in believing them to be and acquiring them but in using them and assembling them to achieve an even greater secret or a greater reward.

The adventurer might have the intelligence and experience to become a welcome visitor of a world in stress, waiting for his ilk to act as a leader to lead their armies to defeat an enemy, and as a reward the adventurer is given a clear path to a hidden secret, which he/ she was seeking.

Therefore, the storyline itself must contain a wealth of events, secrets and exciting encounters, such as in the Arabian Nights or the ancient Egyptian Mystical world as well as in the British superstitious tales. There is always place for a new professionally created storyline based on those learnt rules.

Out of the storyline come the main characters that the role-player encounters, influences and gets influenced by; so how do random generators fit in with a storyline and pre-designed characters. In English we can distinguish that by the two articles (an) and (the); thus when the scenarist encounters (an arena) it can be randomly generated but when it is (the arena) it must be set up with specific features.
So when the Orcish leader Skullhammer comes with 20 archers and 50 swordsmen we may generate them randomly but we must generate him specifically. Such a leader must be so distinguished that he is the last to fall in his army and concludes the victory of the hero, perhaps even with a movie clip.

The final goal of the game may not be a make-believe-reward but a true reward of an adventurer; which is the wealthy and victorious return to home where he /she is mostly admired and a reputation is meaningful. In some cases a romantic touch could be very interesting, like reuniting with a childhood complementary gender.
With wealth, honor and victory our character can gain the warmth of admiration and love, and we are lonely no more.

The game that succeeds in rewarding the player by a feeling of not being lonely is the top-notch game of all times. It is the game, which the player plays over and over to be at home.

Friend! You need to wrote scientific articles online about future of gaming and such. I am not joking. But in the future: can you please, when posting, include a small paragraph recapitulating what you just said for me, the dummy, to follow? I have a short attention span <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/disagree.gif" alt="" />.

Inofficial/unauthorised summary - DAD's ingredients for a successful RPG cocktail:

interesting world full of mysteries, puzzles, quests and encounters (talk and/or fight)
combat + treasure
interesting story developing slowly
secrets, represented by powerful foes, their defeat/or encounter with them reveals the main scheme bit by bit
boss enemies should be honoured by a movie clip on defeat
romance (optional)
reward at the end - standing ovations for the heroine/hero; victorious return home, loaded with loot, honour (and a kiss?)
Kiya

Let me add interactivity and realistic simulated game world.

Hmm... No offence, DAD, but seems obvious.
I just wonder if there are games who never had that?

It is a wonder that you wonder because there is not even one single game that has it all, especially the comeback home.
In Divinity the hero is basically homeless, especially the survivor lady. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
The best games up to this moment prefer the classic movie endings when the narrator comes up with a proverb or a wisdom to preach.
A very true hero is usually a girl or boy that was mainly kicked around and looked down on provoking a great challenge that changes the course of the hero's life.
Now add to that a factor of a complementary gender character sympathizing with the to-be-the-hero, encouraging and energizing the will.
Then begins the training and the seeking of lore within which experience is gained through adventure and quests (and that is mainly what all implements).
RPG goals are persistently vague or have a make-believe as a reward; saving the world or saving humanity from destruction etcetera.
This superman trend is obsolete, tired, exhausted and absolutely empty of true psychological reward.
One needs not save the world but his own home people, and I can convince you why.
Read the news papers every day and find out how many people die every day whom you do not know personally and tell me how much does this fact touch your emotions.
Now let any parent or friend die and tell me if you were not deeply saddened and overwhelmed.
There are thousands who get married everyday, but that would never excite you as much as when YOU get married.
Saving the world is really big, but it has no taste if that world did not include your beloved and those whom you care for.
A true ROLE playing game must give you a role to play and be seriously identified with.
The good news is that in an RPG, not like the real world, you may always save, and reload if you lose. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I do not have to be married to identify myself with the saviour goal in the RPG world. It's sufficient enough for me if my enemies are real big nasty baddies. I do not need a home there, too - but it would be nice to get some acknowledgement for my troubles and expenses afterwards <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> , just to tickle my ego (psychological reward)
Yes, I agree, the saving/reloading part is indeed an advantage towards RL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Kiya

Identification in my case:
vivid world with sympathetic chars (NPC not only as victims but humourous, callous and wicked, too) - headwracking puzzles, mysteries, twists and turns in the plot keep my curiosity alive - loot and unique items - rare but then difficult fights, where I have to think strategically instead of whacking happily - little stories/subquests in between - interactivity with objects (the runes ides is great in RR - mixing/combining items, potions etc = I would have loved it to build a Frankenstein with all those jars in Div) - maybe a little castle for myself to return now and then, level it up, train my people there, hear my rep. rising - if it's a party RPG = interesting, stubborn helpers (the demon alter ego in RR seems intriguing for me)

[color:"#00cccc"]i stole every one of those "jars", but i've still yet to find a nice house.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />
probably a house in every town would be good, so you wouldn't always have to be "riftrunning"
back to your house all the time to unload your goodies, or HeY!!...
or maybe a "send to" menu for all your items that are excess, or not needed,
just right click and send-to.......my home. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
"a little special magic spell......"The spell of...... Send-To....level 5." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />




[color:"#00cccc"]
that would be good as well.....will there be a teleporter in my living room tho?

and someone to wash the dishes, besides me? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

yes, the party thingy... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/badsmile2.gif" alt="" />
could be quite entertaining
with some of the present characters we have here.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/suspicion.gif" alt="" />


kiya both you and DAD are on the same wavelength, just a little variation is all....
when all those different player variations are addressed and implemented into games..
..it will truly be a great game for all types. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
that is probably DD "struck a note" with so many people... bugs, or not
it IS one of the best games i've ever played <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/up.gif" alt="" />
All this talk of RiftRunneR, is good and i think Larian deserves alot more recognition,
and publicity for all their hard work and efforts.
This is decidedly a company that listens
to it's followers, forumembers, and feedback....
how can that NOT result in a better product....down the line? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

man i cannot wait...for the release....
it will be one helluva busy day,
around here thats for sure!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wave.gif" alt="" />

sorry i just like the color..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ouch.gif" alt="" />

DAD,

Ah yes, I see you're right.
Though, do you think that people would've played a game when you start as a 13 years old boy kicked arround and your goal is to become someone special?
I doubt it. People play RPGs to be a superhuman being. Maybe a very skilled swordsman, a very wise druid, a powerful mage.
I agree, none of those are true heroes, yet Superman is considered more heroic than, let's say, Martin Luther King Jr., agree?
Returning home? I can't say I cared that the hero in DD is homeless,[btw, he is NOT homeless if you buy Malcolm's house in Visdistis] really.
Actually MANY heroes are homeless and not many players complained before.

yes, houses which have a item teleporter in a corner, u pay 50 gold coins for each map it goes to, verdistis, dark forest, and others, and u can send stuff like mailboxes! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

we know that it's possible to marry in a RPG game.
but it would be even morre terriffic (terror) if something like this would happen:

what happens if you don't visit your wife some of the time during your adventures.
Or you don't give her flowers or some affection. (some good old lovin' <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" /> )

What if SHE then dicides to say some of her feeling to you ? like yelling at you or making a argument about it.
if afterwards things goes out of hand and she will find things to "stalk" you or things like getting another husband or get an attitude like "janus" the duke towards you ?

you have a new quest; get a divorse!

pay alimentation etc..

now that will be realism!

euh.. i'm pretty serious about it too <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Looks like you know pretty well what family life looks like. Does this have anything to do with you staying at your mother's? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

I chose the female warrior that bested the village’s blacksmith in arm wrestling when she was 15 and killed her first man in a fair fight a year later. Yet when I checked my 15, 10, 10, 10, I found me ignorant, naive, sufferable and above all old ladies win arm wrestling when I defy, so the blacksmith must have been a 150 years old joke that a sissy could kick around.

But really, which is more interesting, to earn being exceptional or to be given that from scratch? On the other hand you do not mind playing homeless while tucked in your cosy seat at home, but you resist playing homely standing on a machine in the street!
I was not discussing if YOU mind being homeless or not, I was discussing psychological rewards. If you think that being homeless is a reward, why don’t you give me your house as a gift and sleep on the streets? Let us be a little bit honest here and stop the shallow responses.
Cheers.

I never suggested getting married inside a game.
I only gave a metaphor for comparing real life identifications when it is you and when it is others. Read my post carefully please.
My original post suggested an Optional romantic line related to a reunion with a childhood friend the enforces the psychological feeling of being home. Home is not just a house or a castle; it is friends, neighbours, relatives and roots. It is the place and people you are ready to die while defending. It is the place and people you wish to hear their cheers and admirations when you return triumphant and wealthy.

The issue is not whether it is O.K. or fine if the hero was homeless or ugly, the issue is what is more rewarding.
You may wish to custom order an RPG for beggars, but I prefer to play the role of a Pharaoh who owns all the land and people and call it home.

Cheers.

Feeling rewarded can come from several sides, DAD.
In my case, "inner rewards" are triggered by this:
my protective adder helps a NPC in distress
I can save/free/protect someone, reunite (Caroline and her son e.g.)
even bringing back a dog/cat/pet to a crying child
defeat a difficult boss enemy

it's not the loot - but inner satisfaction at having succeeded, specially if my emotions/sympathies are going in one direction
hearing a bard sing a ballad about my deeds, or a mother naming her child after me (Pharao, strategy game) - always made me smile <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/winkwink.gif" alt="" /> - this would be no great programming effort, just a little sugar icing on my ego

but I understand, there are gamers who would prefer playing a more involved part in this game (someone with responsibility - a ruler, leader e.g.) and getting the honour/credit within the game. I wouldn't mind it myself - though I've got a slight personal preference towards the homeless, neutral, free stranger, bewildered and unknowing about what's happening at the start - then starting to understand or just starting to choose sides.
Kiya - tramp

I was not defining what must be there to satisfy each and everyone because such a suggestion is obviously silly when every individual is quite different from the other.
Nevertheless, we are all human and we might feel hungry at a certain point and eating could be a good idea.
Computer gamers are most often machine-bound people who are quite lonely by the most basic psychological measures.
Yes, they do have friends, relatives and even enemies to keep them quite comfy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
But the human type that is capable of identifying with a machine is usually one that feels quite lonely while being among a crowd of people.

So the issue is not about enumerating what might be rewarding for each of us as individuals but rather about a common factor.
I did not read one single post saying that having a home is a disgusting punishment. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />
Why do we sometimes sympathise with homeless people? Think about it.

Cheers.

i wasn't reponding on your post @DAD.
try to learn that too?

Learn what?
Your post shows immediately under mine in the threaded view, and I do not rely on the flat view to know who was responding to me. Try using the threaded view and realise that your post was a response to my original post.
So read my post carefully and read yours too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/biggrin.gif" alt="" />

Cheers.

So... I see you prefer starting the game at 52th level with 250 Strenght so that the description comes true. Well, as you wish...

You see, dear DAD, you were not discussing me. But since an average human being is more or less egocentric, I'll tell you: I don't bloody care about anyone else but me. So when you speak about psychological rewards, I think: "What does that have to do with *me*?" Because I don't know about others but it's not by gaining some house that I suddently feel myself rewarded. GTA: Vice City, not an RPG, but it gave you a mansion after some time and you know what? I didn't feel rewarded! The best rewards ever were in Fallout2 when after you finish the game, several people ask you that now as you completed the game, will you erase them from your HD. You see, it's like if they understood that you *completed* the game.

As for my house, I hope you're joking. There's a pretty thick limit between game world and real world. If I can summon a giant demon, run invisible and fight an orcish army without being hit once, it doesn't mean I can do it in real life. Tell me, what's the point of the game showing you "how-bloody-wonderful" your new house is just before the end-game credits start?
It's same as having your computer in a sealed, glass safe: you have it, yes, but you cannot use it! Woohoo!

if you want the full story...
here it is:

i bought a few day's ago a new keyboard/mouse combination (Logitec cordless desktop mx): logitec Mx700 mouse and keyboard.
first i toatally drained all the energy out of my mouse. then i did a full recharge of the batteries.
then again i used my mouse until everythings stops.

with a new type of batteries this procedure is best repeated a few times for optimalicly use the batteries capacity

ok i saw that the mouse was totaly empty,
so i recharged it again. i didn't wanted to pull the mouse out of the recharge device BEFORE it was fully charged. so i used my KEYBOARD to surf on this forums.
When i wanted to type a message i had to "tab" my way until i could select a "replay" option.

the first one i found with hitting the "tab" key was your message . witch had nothing to do with what you typed in there.. I just wanted to create a message.
There's probably easier keyboard shortcuts out there but i did it "my way" (nice song by the way....)

My SECOND reply was of your comment sugesting "read my post before you answer" witch i find very arogant.
with "the learning" bit i wanted to say to you that not everybody isn't replying from your post but sometimes put information in topics that are related to other posts.
some peopple put also non related things in it ofcours ...:D

but since all of this is created by mistake.
and the replys weren't normaly created.
i forget the whole case. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/kissyou.gif" alt="" />