Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General My personal take on the party's alignments (Spoilers)

(Warning, spoilers below for companion development)
Okay, Okay, before everyone yells at me: Let me explain.

1) I know there is no alignment in the game. Got it.
2) I know alignement threads can get super heated and devolve into shouting matches, I don't want that.
3) I know everyone's take on alignment is differrent.
4) I'm aware thare are probably 11 babillion versions of this thread so far.

I got all that.
This is just a fun little thought exercise about how my brain works. It is not meant to be taken seriously. If you disagree, please put down your kind and thoughtful words in the comments below. No need to start a flame war.

First of all, the way I envision alignment is:
Good is selfless, willing to help others, and having a respect for life (especially sentient life.) Does that mean you won't kill? No, it means you don't like killing.
Evil is selfish, drivin by profit or greed, and having no respect/contempt for other life.
Lawful is being orderly (not nessissarily following the law) . Lawful characters tend to have a code of conduct that they follow, try to plan out their actions, and generally don't like flying by the seat of their pants.
Chaotic characters enjoy freedom, they like going with their 'gut feeling' and having the liberty to change their minds. They generally think plans are boring and have trouble sticking to one thing for a large amount of time.

So with that in mind:
Lae'Zel: I think Lae'Zel is Lawful neutral, leaning lawful evil. She does have a contempt for other living creatures, but that's not from malice, that's the Gith brainwashing literally telling her other species are stupid and worthless. She is VERY dedicated to her Gith code, making her lawful, but I hesitate to say she is outright evil because, she isn't doing what she's doing out of perverse pleasure or to gain power . . . she just thinks that's how things should be done.

Shadowheart I'd peg as True Neutral, leaning slightly neutral good. She doesn't seem to have strong convictions and takes things as they come. She is okay forming plans or discarding them if they don't work out, meaning she's not really lawful or chaotic. Her god preaches a lot of evil stuff, but she ends up okay saving the tieflings if you do that, and kinda-sorta-halfheartedly says she'll apologize to Shar for helping people later. To me this puts her slightly on the good side of neutral for me.

Asterion is Neutral Evil, but only just. Like Shadowheart he doesn't mind a plan but doesn't get his heart set on things, and he has a loose personal code (that is, get money, save yourself.) So I think he's neutral on the law-chaos spectrum. He's all about self-survival and getting the most out of any deal, pretty selfish, (not to mention getting out from under the thumb of his master,) but he admits that he isn't adverse to helping people once he's in a position of power. So I think he's NE boardering on TN

Gale: To me, Gale is Neutral Good, bordering on Chaotic. He clearly enjoys helping people, like the tiefling child in the druid grove (reminds him of when he was her age) and routing the goblins to help the tieflings. This puts him in good on my book. Like Shadowheart he seems okay making plans or abandoning them, but the real issue here is how reckless he was with his backstory and getting the piece of the weave. Obviously it was a youthful indiscretion, but I'm not convinced he wouldn't do it again.

Wyll: Solid Chaotic Good, though with a slight dip towards chaotic neutral. He's all about helping people and boasting and bragging. He seems to not care about plans at all and will attack evil goblins on site even if he is greatly outnumbered. This all screams chaotic good, though his blind hatred for goblins and inability to entertain that there could be a good goblin does ding his alignment towards evil a little in my book.

I need to see more of Wyll, but right now I would peg him as chaotic neutral - maybe with hints of neutral evil.

He paints himself as a good guy, but he clearly isn't. I don't think he really cares about others - all seems to revolve around his personal revenge and family issues. I could easily see him finding an excuse to do some horrific stuff, if it suits him.

While i can certainly see your point of view, I think maybe you are judging Wyll at his worst and only at his worst. In the absence of Goblins, he's a pretty upstanding guy. He likes it when you help the Tiefling compose a song to honor her dead friend, he likes it when you prevent Shadow-Druids from taking over the grove, he likes it when you spare the tiefling child-thief. He likes it when you purify the corrupted hyenas and put them out of their misery. He dislikes being needlessly cruel except with Goblins. Yes, he has a blind spot for goblins, and that does ding him on the alignment chart, no doubt. But to say that he doesn't care about others? That's going a bit far IMHO.

According to Larian, all of the NPCs currently in the game are neutral or evil. Since they know better, I’ll take their word for it.

Lae'Zel - lawful evil
Astarion - chaotic evil
Shadowheart - neutral evil
Wyll - true neutral
Gale - lawful neutral

But those are guy feelings and snippets of what I remember. I haven’t actually played with any of the companions for some time.

If we are going strictly the law and goodness scale, Larian is making it clear that the Tiefling is our Chaotic/Good origin charecter. That doesn’t mean there can’t be two, but I agree with Wormerine. Wyll story needs to unfold more, but he can be convinced to torture someone for his personal gain. He doesn’t enjoy, but will do what he needs to do. I don’t see a truly good character so readily doing such things. He’s not evil because he doesn’t enjoy it or isn’t impartial to the act. It bothers him but he does it anyway.

Wyll doesn’t give me the old fashion “free spirit” vibes I grew accustomed to as CN alignments either.

CN leaning good “free spirit” CN leaning evil Wyll?

Again, I see your point, but I'd like to remind you that being good or evil doesn't mean you can NEVER act in the opposite way, just that you really don't like it. Are you going to say Asterion can't be evil because he's willing to help an entire camp full of refugees? Or helps the Mycanoid colony take back their home after being killed by the dwarves? No, he's evil but does some good things, just like, I feel, Wyll does some evil things but is generally good.

As for word of God from Larion, I mean, like I said, alignment means different things to different people, I just call 'em as I see 'em. This is how I'd rate them if they were NPCs in my DnD campaign and someone asked me what their alignments were.

I'd agree that Wyll is a hair's breadth from committing a crime against humanity. Or rather, goblinity. Is that a thing? His heroics are just a positive spin he puts on his hatred for gobs or a part of a pattern of self-aggrandizement.

I generally like Gale, but I think that deep down he's selfish and narcissistic. He doggedly pursues things that give him power or preserve his life. If he were truly selfless, he'd realize that delaying the curse is pointless. He should just row a boat out into the ocean or go into the desert and self-destruct with the fewest casualties.

Lae'Zel is very lawful, as you say. But whether he mistreatment of others is the result of indoctrination or not, it's still mistreatment. I'd say she's evil with a minor capacity for neutrality, as she can at least see some pragmatic value in letting some people or creatures remain alive. She is a character with a possibility for dynamic character growth.

I really think Shadowheart is not who she says or even thinks she is. She believes and wants everyone else to believe that she is lawful evil. But she repeatedly appreciates the PC's positive actions and has some conflicted feelings about Selune. Since Shar is all about secrets, I suspect that Shadowheart's true identity is a secret that is being kept even from herself. Sort of a reverse Darth Revan scenario.

Asterion makes it fairly clear what he is. He's venal, selfish, hedonistic, and bent on revenge. Neutral Evil is the correct call.

I find it funny that the "Good" Origin character is the one who has spent a lifetime spilling blood in Hell. But what little we know of Karlach, she seems alright. She probably has some real emotional baggage though. It's hard to imagine going through all that and not harboring some festering trauma.

Agreed with Wormerine.

Astarian is absolutely chaotic evil. He would even work against his own interest if he thought it would be funny.

SH is in transition so it's hard to say - neutral is as good as any.

Edit: The forums are being strange again so my reply didn't post in time so I wanted to say that I think @eagle pursuit pretty much nailed it.

Based on OP's criteria I somewhat agree with his placement with a couple shifting slightly on one of the axis:

Lae'Zel: I think you're pretty spot on with Lawful Neutral (teetering on Lawful Evil). I don't think anyone would deny she's lawful, and she doesn't "quite" go out of her way to be combative/aggressive. However, still will easily resort to it.

Shadowheart: I'd actually say she Lawful Neutral (leaning Good imo). Admittedly, I put a lot of weight in her strict adherence to he Sharran mission given what she gave up before she left. Also the fact that, at least in my few playthroughs, she still keeps most of the details about that to herself. Even when I managed to romance her.

Astarion: Chaotic Neutral. He obviously prioritizes himself and his pleasure above pretty much anything, but even the fact that he continued to feed on animals until he started feeling weak keeps him out of evil for me. I mean he could've been snacking on Tiefling kids.

Wyll: This is the hardest for me to place, but I'd say True Neutral and leaning more Good (maybe some towards Chaotic). He seems to want to help people, but he always goes back to getting credit/glory. So he doesn't come off completely altruistic to me.

Gale: He's Neutral Good (bordering Chaotic). Gale definitely presents as good aligned as he praises the PC anytime something good happens. However he is also willing to try some sketchy stuff to accomplish his goals.

First of all, I want to thank everyone for being civil and not yelling at anyone, it's much appreciated.

In defense of Wyll: First off, yes, he has his problems, his foibles, I get that. I'm not saying he's a paragon of good, and a lot of his stuff is about glory, but a lot of it isn't. He likes when we help that Tiefling finish her song to honor her dead friend. Why? He gets nothing out of it, it's not furthering his legacy, his story. He likes it when YOU rescue the tiefling child from Karga. He's not getting credit for that, he's not getting paid. He likes it when you purge the hyenas of their corruption. Again, that's not something he brags about, he gives you credit where credit is due. He jokes and says it's not often he shares credit but . . . I mean I think that could be read as joke-bragging. He's playing up his persona for sure, but I think that's just a performance.

I think it comes down to how you read him. He's either an egoist, in which case he's not that bad because he's willing to give credit where credit is due and compliment others on their fighting style, or he's kinda like the stereotypical jovial viking, joke-bragging and putting on a performance because it's fun. In which case he knows he's not all that and he's just joking around. Depends on how you read him. Personally I think he's so over the top, and that's contrasted with his moments of seriousness, that I think it's all just fun and games and a performance, a way to lift the morale of the Refugees. That's just my read though.

And with his beef with the Goblins, let's be real. Yes, again, it's his blind spot, but let's not pretend he was killing a warren full of goblin babies. He KNOWS the tribe that you are going after. They killed all his friends, it's implied they destroyed the entire blighted town, and they have no problem trying to kill an entire group of Tiefling Refugees and a peaceful druid grove. This particular tribe of Goblins has proven time and again to be a menace that are killing people en masse. They should be stopped. So his anger isn't misplaced, just overreationary.

Goblins are evil and my chaotic good Tav agrees with Wyll - let's kill the entire camp for all the reasons you mention.

*But* you accepted someone's surrender in exchange for information. Going back on that agreement is, at least, unlawful and -- I'd argue -- it's an evil act. He surrendered and he's helpless - Wyll should hold in his anger.

He also tortures an innocent human unless you stop him. Again, not a good thing and frankly too evil to count as an evil act. I mean the god of torture in Realms is evil And, as Niara has pointed out to me on a number of occasions, he's willing to abandon the "Save the Grove" quest when a good lead on his patron comes along.

I like Wyll - like SH he could end up evil or good. My guess is that once he finds Mizorra he'll face a choice and emerge as either neutral evil or chaotic good.

Wyll is my favorite NPC from the bunch. He wants to be good, but he is a great liar, especially to himself. I can’t wait to see how his character develops and to witness the emotional reckoning when he finally admits what a charlatan he is.

But with all do respect, some of y’all are looking at these characters with rose colored glasses.

“and she doesn't "quite" go out of her way to be combative/aggressive.”

She literally ambushes you the first time you meet her and the only thing stopping her from trying to bodybag you are your mutual tadpoles. She is very aggressive and combative.

“but even the fact that he continued to feed on animals until he started feeling weak keeps him out of evil for me. I mean he could've been snacking on Tiefling kids”

He tries to surreptitiously feed on you while you sleep, and when you first meet him he tries to trick you and pull a knife to your throat. That’s a pretty evil thing to do to a stranger.

I agree on the humanoids. All are evidently Evil, from the whole spectrum of the other axis.
The two humans? Both are very "it's ALL about me", nothing Good about them.
Wyll - either, as you say, NN, but I see him as CN.
Gale - LN - hmmm. Maybe? I somehow don't see him as "L anything". Maybe NE but just shy? NN?

It's funny, I was going to say the opposite.

"Wylls a blowhard, he must be evil."
"Shadowheart worships and evil god, she has to be evil too."
"Gale didn't kill himself when he got the curse, he must be evil too!"

All joking aside like I said at the top of the round, everyone judges alignment differently. It means different things to different people. No one here is definitivly 'wrong.' Just how you see alignment at your DnD table. I haven't changed my opinion, though I'd guess I'd put Wyll lower on the chart, CG riding the line to CN. It's all in how much you judge their action vs. intentions, and where your cutoff for good, evil, lawful, and chaotic is.

From what I can tell of the companions so far:
Good: Halsin, Minsc, and Jaheira
Probably good: Karlach and the tbd origin companion
Morally gray: Gale, Wyll, and Shadowheart
Evil: Astarion, Lae’zel, and Minthara

About right, except for Jaheira who should be true neutral, unless she has gone alignment shift since BG1&2

I think it's impossible to answer this question - which isn't to say it isn't fun to ponder! - given there's still so much we don't know about the characters (or, in the case of SH they don't know about themselves), many of them have contradictions and tensions in their characters which can send them bouncing around the grid (a good thing in my book), and most of them seem to have the potential to change depending on what happens.

My take so far, though:

Astarion: CE - He's selfish and enjoys a laugh at others' expense. He's obviously had a crappy couple of centuries that have understandably left him bitter and keen to have his time in the sun, but frankly I can see him having been a crooked magistrate happy to take backhanders even before he got vamped. I can imagine him moving towards a more neutral alignment if he can come to trust the party and let go of his anger at Cazador, but can't see him moving a long way from the bottom right of the grid.

Gale: CN - he'll not harm folk on purpose and even will help them and want the best for them, but magic comes first and I don't get the sense that he's cared much about collateral damage in the past. And he's not one who is going to care about the laws of the land or order, he seems to care about freedom, knowledge and again magic. But he's had a horrible shock and I think so far it's made him more considerate perhaps due to his own loss of confidence, and depending on how things go with Mystra and the orb could move more in a CG/NG direction, stick at CN or, if things go badly, even slip into NE/CE.

Lae'zel: LE - authoritarian and sure her society's rules are right, uncaring and bullying towards others. I can see her becoming more chaotic if her faith in her society's rules is shaken, and possibly less evil if she can build positive relationships with the party that feel very different from those she had with other githyanki. Or just stubbornly sticking to her own groove!

Shadowheart: NE/NN?- she seems to believe passionately in her religion, but though her goddess is evil will try to justify the faith as good for people (stripping away lies), and she doesn't want to care about people but kind of does a bit, though not enough to personally choose to go out of her way to help them. She also seems to be happy to stir and try to cosy up to our main character and undermine their relationships with others. Possibly we really are building a friendship, or possibly (more likely) she's manipulating us for her own ends. On the assumption all the friendliness is an act, I'd go for NE, but in the absence of her memories to ground her that she's currently being pulled towards NN. But all bets are off when she gets her memories back.

Wyll: CN/NG - sounds like he was brought up by a crooked, selfish father and, while despising his father, Wyll himself learned to be crooked and selfish just in a different way. Then came Mizora and a terrible mistake that seems to have ironically implanted both a desire and capacity to be a better man, but at the same time set up a situation such that just as he learns to want that, he'll slowly be dragged into more and more evil either to satisfy her demands or to finally win free of her (typical devil!). Depending on how things go, his deal with Mizora could irredeemably compromise him, getting him stuck in CN or even slipping further into evil, or he could break free and become the person he's pretended to be.

@RedQueen - lovely write up!

Gale not NG? I honestly think he is more good than neutral, at least in the context of BG3.

@Red Queen: Good thoughts. And I'm glad you're taking this as the fun thought exercise I meant it to be. A couple counter arguments

First of all, Larian hasn't written any of these characters as paragons of their aligment. All of them have upsides and downsides, and it depends on how much you weigh intention vs action, and good deeds vs. evil deeds. All of them have 'foibles' that make them difficult to put solidly in one alignment.

Asterion: I still see him as NE. Sure he likes having fun (he even says he prefers goofing off in combat to Lae'zel.) On the other hand, he's pretty consistent in his own loose moral code: "Always do what's best for survival and for me." He's willing to make plans and see them through. To me the lawful bits and the chaotic bits kinda even out to neutral evil.

Gale: Just as Wyll has a blind spot for Goblins, Gale has a blind spot for powerful magic. EVERY OTHER THING he does not involving magic shows that he's a good person. He likes it when you help people, doesn't like it when you hurt people, likes it when you help refugees, hates it when you help the maurauding Goblin swarm . . . I think he's basically just a good person who is constantly on the look out for his survival, which requires magic, which again, his blind spot. He's also a guy who likes plans and such, but has done some chaos in his time, so again, I put him at NG.

Shadowheart: I said True Neutral leaning Neutral good. She's a good person who's been stuck with an evil cult and brainwashed by them. But when you give her the option to do what she wants to do, she seems to always go for the good option. Helping the refugees, stopping the shadow druids, etc.

Lae'zel: The only defense I have for Lae'zel is that despite what she says at the beginning . . . she seems to have some respect for life. She promises to help free EVERYONE's tadpoles, not just hers at the creche. She ignores the orders of the superiors to defend her party. She compliments you on your fighting prowess and the abilities of the party. She's also . . . not selfish. Not really. She's selflessly devoting herself to what she's been brainwashed into thinking is the right thing to do. Does that make her good? Well, no, but I don't think it makes her fully evil either. I think she's riding that line between LN and LE.

Wyll: So you put Wyll as somewhere between NG and CN. That puts him at CG, which is where I put him, maybe low CG bordering CN. You guys are right, I forgot that he was willing to torture.