Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback Oathbreaker vs Blackguard (oaths vs morality)

Greetings great developers and players.
I have a serious complain about the oathbreaker subclass of paladins lore-wise to be specific. The oathbreaker is an evil class, you use necromancy, fear and despair in your enemies. You literally cooperate with dark forces. But the problem is that you could become an oathbreaker when you only break a code (oath). Breaking an oath is an unlawful (chaotic) action but not an evil action. But what if a paladin is forced to break an oath in order to do good and protect innocents and victims? It is extremely illogical that paladin to turn to the forces of evil (and use evil magic) because he had only broken his oath, only to do good!
Also even in Baldrus Gate 3 the Oathbreaker Knight that turns you into an Oathbreaker is supposed to be a good knight but unlawful one since in the dialogue he says that he could not see the darkness and corruption of his previous lord. That lord was assumed to be a tyrrant and when the oathbreaker knight killed him, he killed him for a good cause but indeed it was a chaotic action. So that oathbreaker knight was supposed to be neutral good or chaotic good, but NOT evil!
Futhermore the subclass description of the oathbreaker "you have broken your oath in pursuit of power and ambition. Only darkness remains to fuel you know" is also irrational since you might have broken your oath not for power, but for the common good or even accidentally (without your will)!
That oathbreaker class you created is in fact the "Blackguard" class, so to sum up I suggest to create another subclass the "blackguard" if the paladin causes evil actions and turns evil and the "oathbreaker" if the paladin ONLY breaks an oath. If that oath you broke had a connection with the common good then you simultaneously caused evil action and you become a fallen paladin (blackguard)

Also I give you some topics for food for thought about this complicated subclass:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/3kaxpb/5e_lawful_good_oathbreaker_paladin/
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/8079w2/good_aligned_oathbreaker/
https://cosmicdraft.com/does-an-oathbreaker-paladin-have-to-be-evil/
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?502923-neutral-oathbreaker-paladin-your-thoughts
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/28934-neutral-paladin-oath
https://www.quora.com/D-D-Can-you-be-an-oathbreaker-paladin-without-being-evilly-aligned

+1
Then, again, TBH all that is required to regain that juicy, succulent and angelic LG standing is 2000 gold pieces ...

IMO the fault lies with the PHB - not Larian itself - as it does not impose an alignment on the Paladin, but all the blah-blah gives off vibes of LG (or thereabouts). The text you are complaining about probably was lifted straight from there.

BTW - I made a beeline from the Nautiloid to murder the Thieflings guarding the Mottled Toad and acquire the Oathbreaker status.
For the BroodMother! Praised be Lollth!
Imma Happy CE/CN Paladin lolwoot

But I just as well could had chosen to play a Paladin of e.g. Eristraee (and prance around in the moonlight starkers), i.e. CG.

Indeed PHB is a thing, but Larian should not forced to be trully submitted to PHB. Some things should be changed... It is a modern game after all, not a old pen and paper conversion. Oh and I completely forgot about the 2000 gold pieces, this is very silly and should be changed!!

I think larians idea of a paladin breaking their core tenants leading to a change of subclass (old school= change of alignment) was very creative.
Their implementation could be improved by explaining exactly what you agree too when you play paladin, how you break your oath, how not to break your oath, and for it be consistent for mechanical and roleplay purposes. i will understand if they just remove the whole 'lose your oath mechanic' and just let players choose oathbreaker subclass and roleplay their characters how they wish.

I LOVE the Oathbreaker system. It's bold and creative.

It does, of course, need work but I would hate for them to abandon it. It just adds so much to that class to be held to a standard - as it was meant to be.

I take the OP's point that the powers the Oathbreaker gets are perhaps too classically evil to fit every ex-paladin that goes that route, and that the actual 5e subclass definition does talk about dark ambitions or serving evil powers though as I agree that isn't exactly how the Oathbreaker knight sells it it looks as though Larian have a slightly different take. I'd also agree that the proof of concept we see in patch 9 could do with a fair bit of work, but I find the overall idea works for me. I'm assuming we'll get Oath of Vengeance in the full release for our evil-from-the-start paladins, so the Oathbreaker will be reserved for those who initially swore one oath but grew to despise what it stood for with a zeal that mirrors the devotion they used to have for their oath.

For me, that's what distinguishes an Oathbreaker from just a paladin who has broken their oath. The latter is what we become after the oath is (in the game's view) broken but before we either recommit to our oath or to the Oathbreaker path. A paladin in this state can still do most of what they could do before, except channel their oath. I guess it would be possible to continue in this state indefinitely (I'm not sure if you can level up?) and though it would clearly not be an optimised choice, I can see someone making it for roleplay reasons. Particularly if we get multiclassing and can decide to progress in another class, in which case I think it would make a lot of sense to prevent taking new levels in paladin unless we'd committed to one path or another. To me it makes sense that a paladin who has simply broken their oath loses something and doesn't gain new divine powers, as it's not clear where these would come from. I guess you could argue they should even lose access to divine spells they had previously, though personally I'm happy to handwave that.

An Oathbreaker paladin as I see it is going a step further, and rejecting their previous oath with a fervour that actually forges a new, different (and darker, given the paladin options we have so far are the good ones) connection to the divine domains of the Realms. That's what gives them their new powers, not merely having broken their old oath. I find this idea interesting and one that opens up some interesting roleplay ideas, though the execution (including the availability of meaningful opportunities for oathbreaking) is a long way from perfect.

But paying 2000GP to restore your oath doesn't actually bother me as a stand-in for some sort of cost given that I understand there's only so much resource that can be justified for one class. Though I'd prefer it to be accompanied by some sort of overnight vigil animation as we rest the next night before our powers come back, or even something more sophisticated, but will happily use my imagination on this one if necessary. I do think the cost should increase each time we break our oath, though I guess that would have been unfair in EA given that the system for determining when oaths are broken is, let's say, in its infancy. As has been discussed at length on these forums previously!

Like Blackheifer, I hope we'll keep the paladin oath system and see an improved and expanded version in the full release.

A very nice and satisfying reply you gave "The Red Queen"
As I stated(and people from the forums in the links I gave) oaths do not always represent the lawful good alignment and in the same way the oath of the ancients represent more something like the balance of nature (like a true druid should). So by betraying that oath it does not automatically make you a servant of darkness and evil.
I also like the oath systems and the oathbreaker class, and I suggest Larian to not delete that subclass, but only to add another subclass the "blackguard" which in my opinion is more like the traditional evil-fallen paladin that serve darkness and evil beings. Of course Larian then should improvise and make its own changes that might get with some contrasts with the tradition (5e Player's Handbook), but a great RPG must be great and not be limited by some rules! Furthermore one could ask that if Larian created the Blackguard class, then what powers Oathbreakers should have? Should they just be (ex)paladins without divine powers (something like warriors?). Well that is a problem...
As for the 2000GP, I insist that is a childish mechanic. Imagine an competely different plot where a Paladin betrays his oath for power and greed. And by his actions on the one hand, he betrays his oath, but on the other hand he became a millionaire! Then he could instantly buy and sell his oath (and his divine powers) thousands of times, and this is very unrealistic! One solution you gave it; an ever increasing amount of gold each time you betray your oath, but another punishment might be experience points or even pernament power loss, like ability points or loss of max hit points. Also some more realistic solution is to just lose your divine powers and become something like a warrior (temporary) and when the plot advances and an opportunity is given, then with your actions you can please your oath, and only then you should pay the fine to the oathbreaker knight, only then you could regain your paladinhood!

I testify to ability to level up as Oathbreaker. I'm 4th lvl ATM.
I'm not certain I lost anything from Paladin 2lvl - that's when when I changed teams - I am baffled by retaining a ability to Heal with Lay on Hands ... alongside being able to Inflict Wounds ...
Hellish Rebuke is FUN!

Just to clarify, it's not the ability to level up as an Oathbreaker that I was wondering about, but if you could level up while in the intermediate state of having broken your oath (ie got the "Oath Broken" text pop up on screen and in the combat log) but not yet having committed to being an Oathbreaker to the knight or having paid him to restore your oath. That's the state in which you lose the ability to channel, though you regain it whichever way you then jump.

Apologies if you'd already realised that was what I was talking about, but it sounded as though you might be talking about levelling up after having signed up as an Oathbreaker to the knight.

No appologies needed
I was not bright enough to understand your intent
Will experiment with the scenario you outlined - i.e. progress to 2nd lvl, debase, defile and despoil myself :), and grind to 3rd level without talking to the Goblin Slayer (he really, really looks like the titular character from the anime, glowing red eyes included) expy with Scottish accent.

I'm not sure it's worth your time to test out . To be honest, I'd be surprised if Larian have done anything to prevent level up while in the grey area with patch 9, but I still would live in hope they might add this for the full release along with the ability to multi-class!

Yes the Oathbreaker subclass has never made much sense. But that's WotC's fault, not Larian's.

Paladins in general are weird in 5e. Most of the subclasses seem to be oriented towards evil. Or at least, most of the subclasses worth using are.

I confirm ability to level up after breaking Oath yet not taking on the Oathbreaker class. All that my Paladin lost was her Channel Oath Charge - this is now greyed out - i.e. Healing Radiance, . Turmn the Faithless and Nature's Wrath
Lay on Hands is unchanged, at lvl3 I get access to Speak With Animals spell ...

IMO I lost very little. I will continue my playthrough as a Fallen Pally.

Quick question: Can a Pala dip (so at most 2 levels) also become an Oathbreaker?

I guess we’ll have to wait and see. My understanding is that per 5e a paladins needs to be level 3 before they even take an oath, so it’s not clear how they could break it before then. But of course our EA paladins started off level 1 with an oath so we’re looking at some Larian homebrew here. I don’t see why, if we have an oath at level 1 or 2 we shouldn’t be able to break it, though.

That's the thing, I don't want to become an Oathbreaker and certainly not accidentally and then restore my state every time. (I'm in the process of reflavouring a replacement class for the non-existent Artificer Class for my Dwarven Guild Artisan).

Just to make sure we’re on the same page with respect to the terms, you don’t become an Oathbreaker paladin (ie adopt the subclass) just by breaking your oath. That requires active repudiation of your oath to the Oathbreaker knight. A paladin who has broken but not repudiated their oath just loses their Channel Oath powers, so I guess in a sense they just become like a paladin who hasn’t sworn an oath. You can still cast paladin spells and use abilities that don’t require Channel Oath, or at least I never found anything else I couldn’t do though I’ve never stayed in that state long.

In short, you can never become an Oathbreaker (subclass) accidentally, so that doesn’t need to be a worry. And if you don’t want to be beholden to an oath, then as long as you don’t want to actually use any Channel Oath powers, you can just do whatever you want and ignore any impact on the oath. If you do want to retain your Channel Oath powers then I think it would only be right that the game would expect you to uphold the oath even if you were only a very junior paladin (I can’t actually recall what powers we get at what level, though there presumably wouldn’t be much to lose early on). But I’ll be disappointed if it’s as easy to break our oaths in circumstances that don’t seem reasonable when the game releases so hopefully that’ll be less of a concern, too.

Apologies if that is just telling you a bunch of stuff you already know or doesn’t help with your challenge!

No apology necessary. On the contrary, thank you for sharing your experience from ingame. I had never had to consider the Pala until now and therefore had not played it. Yesterday I found a post on the internet that said that a Paladin who breaks his oath below level three immediately becomes an Oathbreaker, at leat, at level 3 (unfortunately I can't find the source anymore). This confused me because I didn't know if I would then have no longer the spellcasting ability available like I did back in BG 1/2.

Cool, glad that's useful. And in that case, now I'm at my PC again, I'll be a bit more specific.

Heavily caveated, of course, by the fact that this is from early access so may well change on full release, what happens when the game judges you to have broken your oath (which currently is mainly when the paladin strikes a killing weapon strike against a previously neutral NPC or interacts with a red item, though hoping for something more sophisticated come the full game) is that you get an "Oath Broken" condition as follows:



This doesn't affect your subclass at all, only prevents you using those powers which require Channel Oath charges. For my Devotion paladin at level 1, that's only Holy Rebuke (for an Ancients paladin it would only be Healing Radiance). At level 3 he got Sacred Weapon and Turn the Unholy as well, but if you're only going for 1 or 2 levels you wouldn't have those powers to lose. Lay on Hands has a separate charge pool and can still be used even with the Oath Broken condition.

To actually move to the Oathbreaker subclass (and regain your ability to channel your oath, albeit now with the specific Oathbreaker powers rather than those of your original subclass) you need to speak with the Oathbreaker Knight back at camp and agree to reject your oath. Alternatively you can pay him and regain your oath. Or just say you'll think about it and elect to do neither and remain in the twilight zone indefinitely. I do wonder whether in the full release there might be some restrictions on levelling up as a paladin while in that twilight zone, but I don't believe there are any in early access.

Hi there. This will be my first post here.

Like many others, I'm not exactly a fan of this Oathbreaker subclass or its implementation.

In no particular order:

i. If it is about ethics, morality, honour etc then how is waving one's cheque book at it any kind of sensible solution to regaining one's Paladin status?

ii. I got caught twice in my Paladin play. I can't remember what triggered the first one but I paid the 20k. The second time it happened was because I killed a hostile goblin(?) who hadn't had the chance to attack me (one of the other party members had started the fight). I didn't bother talking to the guy at camp and ignored him for the remainder of the game any without noticeable consequences.

iii. If you can choose Oathbreaker at level 1 then you aren't much of a Paladin really.

iv. I'm in the Blackguard/Anti-Paladin camp.