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Originally Posted by Necrosian
Also Mr. Hardcore, as previously stated, i played the game in EA too. and i welcome the changes as they make BG3 accessible to more people. So stop the gatekeeping.

What does this mean? Gatekeeping - in this sense?

There is a literal 'story mode' in the game that will make it easy enough so that if your character is built horribly you will still be able to beat the game. I don't see anyone complaining about it. If you have no desire to deal with the systems put in place in the game, then you should play that difficulty. If you are looking for something more challenging, then you should play the other difficulties.

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
Originally Posted by Beechams
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Originally Posted by BiasWINS
This argument is not fallacious in any way, shape or form. One of Larian's selling points for this game is the amount of choice they are offering via game design and mechanics. Choice implies that one or more options will not be chosen. Should I complain that Larian provides the option of killing the grove druids because I don't want to do it?

You appear to be making a tautological argument. Anything which allows deviation from the way you wish the game to be is bad. These choices allow the game to deviate from the way you want the game to be so therefore they are bad.

Oh my god, it has NOTHING to do with Larian's selling point, he was talking about SYSTEMIC design. Systemic design doesn't care about who wants what, it is set there in place in order to make systems work and create a fair and balanced experience. What they did is said: "Well, we are leaving big holes in our systems so that you can abuse them to feel good, and if it makes you feel bad, you can avoid abusing them and become a system designer yourself". This is so lazy, they made a poor system, disguised it with freedom of choice and then crashed it on top of every EA players' head. EA players are people who made this game possible at this scale in the first place and they played a COMPLETELY different game which is likely going to be substituted with some casual bs.

All of this does not apply if the news prove to be false.

You mean the SYSTEMIC [sic] design of a game built from the ground up to provide choice? Your washing machine gives you choice but there is nothing in its design to stop you abusing those choices - you can still choose to put colours in with your whites.

"What they did is said: Well, we are leaving big holes in our systems so that you can abuse them to feel good, and if it makes you feel bad, you can avoid abusing them and become a system designer yourself". Did they? Did they really?

So what if the people who played EA played a COMPLETELY [sic] different game? Firstly they didn't all play the game the same way and secondly, these alleged features weren't in EA so they weren't there for people to use or to get hysterical about.

Yes, they did, lol, and you were just recently pressing those points yourself, remember, along with some others? Something along the lines of "If you don't like it, self-restrict yourself and don't use it?". Seems like a damn job to me, rather than entertainment. Like doing the chores at other person's home in order to get tipped a dollar in the end and still not be happy, because someone got tipped 10 for nothing.

I can't really understand what you are trying to say here or which of the points I made you are trying to answer.
"If you don't like it, self-restrict yourself and don't use it? As in you, a sentient being, choose.

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Originally Posted by Necrosian
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Aren't Tuco's chess analogy and button analogy good enough an explanation? I think those were well put (even if seemingly a bit emotional) and I really don't want to repeat if reading through them again more thoughtfully can suffice. Pls consider reading through once more, then pls let me know if those are completely alien for you to understand, then I'll try to come up with my one examples.

No. The thing is if people want to play like that, they can. If you don't like it then that is fine too. You don't have to play it or like it, but you can't take that choice from other people.

Originally Posted by neprostoman
EA players are people who made this game possible at this scale in the first place and they played a COMPLETELY different game which is likely going to be substituted with some casual bs.

Also Mr. Hardcore, as previously stated, i played the game in EA too. and i welcome the changes as they make BG3 accessible to more people. So stop the gatekeeping.

Can you not call me that? This is impolite.

You being fine with those changes and liking them for what they are has nothing to do with them being poor design choice. Also, don't play the victim please, no one is taking the choice from you, you were instead given all the choice imaginable and more. Good for you, but bad for the game, because those new systems are fundamentally flawed:

- Multiclassing is dominant over the 'pure' classes. Both are ways people like to play. No balance between approaches which was present before.
- Scaling of spell slots makes proper high leveling in some of the classes useless, that means a game feature is useless which is bad design.
- Removal of racial ASIs with no proper substitution for half-races destroys the racial balance. Ones favorite race now pure trash -> bad system, bad design.
- Respecing your companions to be different classes favors gameplay and hurts the story, which is also bad design between two subsystems in the game.
- Same for respecing yourself.

Last edited by neprostoman; 11/07/23 10:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Beechams
I can't really understand what you are trying to say here or which of the points I made you are trying to answer.
"If you don't like it, self-restrict yourself and don't use it? As in you, a sentient being, choose.
So never use Jaheira as she will benefit from the multiclassed caster change? And also never use all other companions that have the changed multiclassing? Ditto for all other multiclasses companions or companions with changed ASI?
"Just don't use it" doesn't work when the game actively uses it for and against you.

Last edited by Ixal; 11/07/23 10:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by neprostoman
Originally Posted by BiasWINS
For sure. You'd ofc also not be playing a game that rivals the budget of a A-A-A SP in the style of say Horizon or TLOU hell you would not even be playin an OwlCat budget one.

What does budget have to do with this?
To spend a lot of money on a game, you have to make a game people will want to play. Not the 0.2% of people who play DnD. The 2 billion people who play video games. What about this is hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by Llengrath
Originally Posted by Necrosian
Not everyone plays DnD you know, and learning ruleset just to play a single game seems bit much to expect from people.
In all my life I never played a crpg where I didn't have to learn rules, and I don't want to. If Larian wants to make a game where you don't have to learn any rules, that's their prerogative, but it's not what I wanted when I paid 60€ for a game called Baldur's Gate.
Then you should have waited for release like you were repeatedly warned through the Early Access purchase process.

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
To spend a lot of money on a game, you have to make a game people will want to play. Not the 0.2% of people who play DnD. The 2 billion people who play video games. What about this is hard to understand?
More than anything?
The direct correlation between the features announced and this alleged explosion in popularity for the game.


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I don’t care for features I can simply not use like respect. I do find the creatively weak, but I also think it is necessary considering how underwhelming companions selection is.

News about multiclassing are worrying. If brought too close to singleclass, than playing a singleclass character stops being an option.

I don’t have enough 5e understanding to comment on class requirements.

Either way, those are things modders should be able to address.

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Originally Posted by Lake Plisko
I think at times it can be best to use extremes in order to drive a point home as to what people are saying.

Let's say you run into an NPC who is rather bad early in the game and easy to kill. You can either talk to them or kill them, but either way they will either give you or have 'THE CAP OF AWESOMENESS!' on their corpse. 'THE CAP OF AWESOMENESS!' sets all of your ability scores to 100, gives you every spell in the game and makes you have a million hit points. Is this good game design?

What is you run into other characters that drop the belt of awesomeness, sword of awesomeness, etc. And some of them set your ability scores to 30, some others set them to 50... but they overall all make you absurdly powerful. Is that good game design?

After all - you could just choose not to use these absurdly powerful items that are dropping all over the place... right?

Sure if the game is balanced around items like that. But unlike those items respec or buffing multiclasses can be made with balance in mind. As i wrote previously if people want to abuse respec they will or they will just get trainers(those still a thing?) and cheat.

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Originally Posted by Lake Plisko
Originally Posted by Necrosian
Also Mr. Hardcore, as previously stated, i played the game in EA too. and i welcome the changes as they make BG3 accessible to more people. So stop the gatekeeping.

What does this mean? Gatekeeping - in this sense?

There is a literal 'story mode' in the game that will make it easy enough so that if your character is built horribly you will still be able to beat the game. I don't see anyone complaining about it. If you have no desire to deal with the systems put in place in the game, then you should play that difficulty. If you are looking for something more challenging, then you should play the other difficulties.

He means that I am some sort of internet warrior that defends my own idea of fun and opinion on how the game should be played, while denying any changes that can make him to have fun. What I actually do is criticize the systems for their flaws and thats it. But we are not on the same page thats why we can't settle on anything.

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Wow this is dumb. I'm not even a DnD fan, but I took time to read the rules to plan out a build before release, and now I just feel stupid. I hope they at least use the DnD rules in tactician difficulty.

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Originally Posted by Beechams
Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Tarorn
Must have missed something here ..it’s essentially a single player game - yes you can multiplayer likely with friends and not randoms in which case you’ll play as per the group rules.
The point is it’s irrelevant what anyone else does with the rules as presented as long as they enjoy their own experience.
Many of us will self police certain features I’m a d&d fan but last I played was third edition so I’ll apply rules as I think will most help me enjoy my experience - who cares about anyone else’s ?
Larian are selling a game to as wide an audience as they can so it will be wholly successful to all spectrum of rpg fans.
I think this will be an amazing experience over hundreds maybe thousands of hours - choice matters in gameplay - if there are parts that you don’t like - ignore it and play it your own way and have a great time doing so.

"Just don't use it if you don't like it" is an incredibly fallacious argument when applied to game design and mechanics.
In the very moment you are setting new rules and conditions, you are intrinsically changing how a game plays. That remains true even if the reaction is "I'm not a fan of it". You are basically asking the player to "pretend the flawed rule isn't there" and to self-restraining from taking advantage of it.
This argument is not fallacious in any way, shape or form. One of Larian's selling points for this game is the amount of choice they are offering via game design and mechanics. Choice implies that one or more options will not be chosen. Should I complain that Larian provides the option of killing the grove druids because I don't want to do it?

You appear to be making a tautological argument. Anything which allows deviation from the way you wish the game to be is bad. These choices allow the game to deviate from the way you want the game to be so therefore they are bad.
Tuco's post is honestly borderline troll. It's not about discussion on a forum its a statement that they are right, everyone who disagrees is stupid, and there is no possibility that anyone else might have any defensible point that applies to people that are not Tuco. No-one else's needs, wants or opinions matter. At this point even engaging is manifestly pointless.

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Originally Posted by Lake Plisko
Originally Posted by Necrosian
Also Mr. Hardcore, as previously stated, i played the game in EA too. and i welcome the changes as they make BG3 accessible to more people. So stop the gatekeeping.

What does this mean? Gatekeeping - in this sense?

There is a literal 'story mode' in the game that will make it easy enough so that if your character is built horribly you will still be able to beat the game. I don't see anyone complaining about it. If you have no desire to deal with the systems put in place in the game, then you should play that difficulty. If you are looking for something more challenging, then you should play the other difficulties.

It's just the usual old buzzwords and poorly disguised shaming tactics. If you have ANY standard whatsoever about game design, if you care about getting a gaming experience with any resemblance of depth or balance, then you are clearly a basement dweller, an irrational purist not open-minded enough and a gatekeeper.

Originally Posted by Elessaria666
I
Tuco's post is honestly borderline troll. It's not about discussion on a forum its a statement that they are right, everyone who disagrees is stupid, and there is no possibility that anyone else might have any defensible point that applies to people that are not Tuco. No-one else's needs, wants or opinions matter. At this point even engaging is manifestly pointless.
The only trollish thing here is you throwing a tantrum fit and calling me names, simply because I didn't instantly buy your useless platitudes about how I should just pretend a problem doesn't exist.

Also, the comparison between a mechanical rule that I "could just choose to pretend doesn't even exist" and the narrative choice of "killing druids or not" was borderline embarrassing, anyway.

Last edited by Tuco; 11/07/23 11:13 AM.

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Originally Posted by EMTFields
Wow this is dumb. I'm not even a DnD fan, but I took time to read the rules to plan out a build before release, and now I just feel stupid. I hope they at least use the DnD rules in tactician difficulty.
Yes, this is EXACTLY how I feel! I'm not a DnD fan. I purposely studied DnD for this game so I can play it well. I read the PHB and spend hours every day thinking what kind of interesting builds I can make and what are the restrictions. Now it's just like, "well there are no restrictions, just do what you want and enjoy easy gameplay". This is just my typical luck I guess, I never get what I hope for.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Beechams
I can't really understand what you are trying to say here or which of the points I made you are trying to answer.
"If you don't like it, self-restrict yourself and don't use it? As in you, a sentient being, choose.
So never use Jaheira as she will benefit from the multiclassed caster change? And also never use all other companions that have the changed multiclassing? Ditto for all other multiclasses companions or companions with changed ASI?
"Just don't use it" doesn't work when the game actively uses it for and against you.
Eh? Don't use multi-classing. The alleged changes to multi-classing for your character and the ability to multi-class a companion are two separate issues. Either way they are still choices. You may not like the consequences of either choice but they are still choices. There will be players who are happy with both choices.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Elessaria666
To spend a lot of money on a game, you have to make a game people will want to play. Not the 0.2% of people who play DnD. The 2 billion people who play video games. What about this is hard to understand?
More than anything?
The direct correlation between the features announced and this alleged explosion in popularity for the game.
You have apparently missed the last decade of trends in game popularity. Am I sad that things have gone in the direction they have? Yes. Do I think the games produced are less engaging as a result? Also yes. Do the games make the developers more money. 100%.

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
You have apparently missed the last decade of trends in game popularity.

Do the games make the developers more money. 100%.

I'm not seeing actual data backing the claim, incidentally.

Production value is what will make the game a big seller. Not how much stupid "optional" mechanics the game will include. Stuff that the OVERWHELMING majority of the "casual buyers" won't even be aware exists until 20-30 hours into their playthrough IF the devs are lucky and the players will remain engaged enough.

Last edited by Tuco; 11/07/23 11:18 AM.

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
What I actually do is criticize the systems for their flaws and thats it
What you call flaws are things which allow players to make choice you don't agree with. That is why you are accused of gatekeeping.


Originally Posted by Lake Plisko
If you are looking for something more challenging, then you should play the other difficulties.
Why? Just because you said so? Who are you to tell anyone how they should play their game?

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by Elessaria666
You have apparently missed the last decade of trends in game popularity.

Do the games make the developers more money. 100%.

I'm not seeing actual data backing the claim, incidentally.

Is Baldurs Gate climbing steam sales chart up to the top-2 positiom after they showed the bear stuff a good enough data?

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Originally Posted by Elessaria666
Originally Posted by Llengrath
In all my life I never played a crpg where I didn't have to learn rules, and I don't want to. If Larian wants to make a game where you don't have to learn any rules, that's their prerogative, but it's not what I wanted when I paid 60€ for a game called Baldur's Gate.
Then you should have waited for release like you were repeatedly warned through the Early Access purchase process.
Oh believe me, I learned my lesson. But calling their game Baldur's Gate brings a certain set of expectations, so have some empathy and allow me to feel cheated.

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