Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Could BG3'S ambition kill the RPG as we know it

Really? Even though I just said it's not a money thing. Whatever.

Maybe you are taking their dislike of the game a little too personally?

Anyways. BG III is an amazing game in so many ways, but they are trying to do a great many things at once, have made some decisions in building the game that are perhaps questionable, and their execution in other areas-likewise. I have no doubt it will be an excellent game, but perhaps not as amazing as it could have been. There's certainly going to be some lessons to be learned for other developers, and as well for Larian themselves. Whether the *right* (IMO) lessons to be had are taken away is another matter.

For whatever it's worth, I remain incredible excited for the release, despite the many disappointments and criticisms myself and others have voiced towards the game. Probably my most anticipated game over the past few years, even if I have curtailed my expectations somewhat.

I'm having trouble understanding this. Are you saying you generally don't like RtwP, but a few of your favorite games transcend that? If that's the case, I got the exact opposite experience from PoE. When they dropped the turn based mode, I tried it, I didn't like it, but I tried to give it a chance. And after a couple days (a few hours after work, not like weekend days), I just hated it. RtwP is what I want.

I reckon this is one of those things where people just want different things. With PoE there's a choice, which is hella cool, but RtwP doesn't work for multiplayer, so long, long ago I made my peace with not having it in BG3

Some of my favorite childhood video games are RtwP (the 5 Infinity Emgine games), and then there is the Total War series, which has optional RtwP, and more recently FF7Remake is a variation on RtwP.

I love all these games, but in general, I wouldn’t say I love RtwP. I think BioWare games post BG (yes, even KotoR) are just not fun to play and the Pillars of Eternity combat really put me off the idea of RtwP entirely. I believe there is a way where it could probably be done right, but neither BioWare, Obsidian, or the handful of smaller indie games I have played have achieved this for me.

Divinity OS2, XCOM, and Fire Emblem have really sold me on turn based strategy. I find it more fun and satisfying.

I'm unsure why people find this to be such a hot take or personal attack thing... or why they think I am "taking it personally"?

I have been critical of the game and Larian as well. I just don't believe someone lurking on a forum for hundreds of hours about a specific game and listing their starting class hasn't bought the game already and/or has no intentions to do so. I have told him this before, haha.

I said the same thing to some dude the other day when I was poking around discussing the new Cyberpunk expansion thing. Some guy was like "I have played through this game fifteen times and have thousands of hours into it. I know everything about it from time to bottom! I have tens of thousands of posts on this forum and I can definitively say this game sucks and isn't worth playing!!!" and I am like bro... you played through a game fifteen times for thousands of hours that isn't worth playing... and spend that much time on a forum chatting about it? That don't add up, breh.

Coming back to OP, what do we mean by RPGs as we know it? Niche RPGs (Pathfinder, PoEs) or AAA “RPGs” (action games with vertical stat progression and occasional dialogue choices like AssCreeds or Witcher3).

If BG3 reaches a public and shows what an RPG actually is, that can only be a good thing in my book. All I can say that at the very least BG3 is what Dragon Ages should have aimed at.

What impact on niche cRPGs BG3 could have, I cannot predict - I don’t know how many of those we will get to begin with. Outside Owlcat the well seemed to dry out anyway.

Do we really need to question people, why they post here? Kanisatha isn't impolite or rude, he just hangs out here, giving his opinion. That's what forums are for.
I'm still hanging around the BioWare forums, despite Not being invested in their newer games anymore, because I like the people there.

There is a certain group of posters here who have been bemoning the game for literal years and telling everyone who will listen they won't play it.

Telling others something sucks when you don't even have experience with that thing is rude. Especially when it seems like that is the only reason they post here.

When you see Swen get teary eyed in the pfh talking about how much he loves this game and then come here on the offical forms to people trolling his team, for literal years, yeah its going to make some posters here upset.

If posters who haven't even played the game have a right to troll these boards, than others have the right to call them out on it from time to time, imo. Your statement "do we really need to question people, why they post here," cuts both ways.

Yeah and what exactly do you hope to get out of that? You will only escalate things and make Queens life as moderator hard. Maybe instead say, what you like about the game and that you appreciate the hard work of the Larian team ( and yes, I know, that you do that already).
I'm not saying you or kanisatha should stop, but maybe don't get personal about it, is all I'm saying.

I dont see how commenting on these posts is an escalation, especially when posts of this nature are really the only thing these accounts post.

There are some accounts here you would have to stop responding to entirely to not "escilate" things because their posts are always of a provocative nature.

Either way I think this discussion is pretty on topic for the thread title and said posters come here with a provacative post first. So I don't really see addressing them here as derailing a thread.

At the end of the day I'm trying to reason with posters like these, make them see how much time they have spent hating a game they dont even play, hoping I can get through to them. But if I see them derail non meta threads like this one in the future I'll just report them as red queen suggests and not engage.

Okay, I'm back.

And I'm going to add my voice to those saying (thank you!) that the best thing to do if you feel you're getting upset by a discussion is to disengage, and rather than amplifying the arguments or positions you object to, often the best thing to do is just let it go and focus on the discussions you do think are interesting and constructive.

And definitely please avoid going over the same ground again. I'd encourage everyone, whether their views are positive or negative, to recognise when they have made their own position clear and not to keep repeating it just because others don't agree. Especially if you don't feel they're enjoying it, or you're not enjoying it, and it's not going to make anyone change their mind. That is an unfortunate fact of life on public forum ... except I think it's actually fortunate that we get to chat with folk with differing perspectives and preferences and love the fact that at their best these forums are a place where we can do that without it getting bad-tempered and personal.

Back to a topic at hand, my guess is that Larian will make DOS3 first, but until that happens, they'll support BG3 for a longer while, by fixing and tweaking things and possibly adding new races (aasimars, please!), classes/subclasses, spells etc. I'm not sure about an expansion, though, that would probably depends on sales numbers and how badly WoTC needs money.

I don't imagine they won't be tempted to expand the story, so we could achieve levels closer to 20, if only for the fun of making all those fancy high level spells, but they are not exactly known for having a track record of story expansions, so we will have to wait and see.

i expect it to get the larian treatment, nameley an enhanced edition in one or two years that fixes the lategame and adds some little things.
dont expect DLC, Larian to me knowledge never have done DLC, its just not their style.

Thank you.

The game will be playable and fun just like the DOS games. I have little doubt about that. And, while there seems to be a lot packed in, the game isnt doing anything other rpgs haven't done previously. Other rpgs will be. Besides, even bg3 turns out to be 'best game ever' other rpgs will still be created and enjoyed. There's always been a 'best rpg ever' yet rpgs are still being made. Dnd video games have been made for decades as well as rpgs in general... yet here we are in 2023... awaiting another. I'll be around, most likely, in 2035 nearing 60 years old awaiting my next rpg to play. No worries.

I think a lot of it's in the presentation.

For instance, saying, "I don't like this game. It's not for me because I don't enjoy x, y, and z."

To which someone responds, "Oh, wow! I really like those things. I guess we like different games."

--that's all fine.

But sometimes it comes more like: "The people at Larian are incompetent at game design."

--that kind of thing is different because it's rhetoric that pretends to be objective truth. When it's anything but. Clearly, this professional company selling millions of dollars worth of games are competent at game design. You may not like their design, which is fair, but that's just taste.

As someone who respects a lot of the work that Larian has done, I find people saying this kind of stuff for years to be, well, borderline offensive. Not the first time, or even the second. It just piles up over time and bubbles about until it's hard not to make some snarky comment in return, and there you have it.

In my opinion, the Red Queen is absolutely right in that we should disengage from certain back and forths. All I can say is, some moments it's easier said than done, because I know I've been guilty of it myself. I read some of the forum posts sometimes and find myself (sarcastically) thinking, "Gosh, look at all these folks who missed their calling in life and should have been the CEO of a game design studio."

And for what it's worth, I certainly don't mean to single out kanisatha. I'm more referencing all the negativity. There's no point mentioning names. All the regulars here know what the other posters are like by this point.

*

Anyway. I'm really looking forward to the game. I'm sure they'll be things that aren't perfect for me in the game. But I'm also sure that I've thoroughly enjoyed my time in EA, and I feel like I've gotten my money's worth several times over already.

It's impossible to give everyone what they're looking for. So, I'm sorry for those of you who were looking forward to this, and it didn't turn out being what you wanted. I sincerely hope you find the game you're looking for.

Seems other devs are terrified to be held to a new higher standard.
See no reason why other AA studios with the same or even more resources shouldn't be held to a higher standard.
Indie developers obviously different.

There are very few other rog devs at Larian's level. Certainly no AA ones. Bio, Obsidian, and the Twitcher devs are the only ones that come to mind. Diablo creators if you count that.

BioWare’s sun has set. Everybody who made their old games successful jumped ship a while ago. Obsidian is now owned by Microsoft, so will see how that works out. Ditto for Bethesda. CDPR are okay at making video games but bad at making RPGs, in my opinion. Blizzard doesn’t even make games anymore. They make monetization systems built around dopamine traps.

Kind of a dry cycle for RPG development, so I’m very appreciative that Larian are doing what they are doing.