Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Respecing that Oathbreaker?

That's an interesting theory. It solves the story problem with respec'ing that some folks have a big issue with, but it introduces its own problem. If the 'pole is a reasonable in-game explanation for respecing, that means we can't trust any perception as true. If we can't know what's true and what's not, that's a problem. If a game is going to have epistemological ambiguity, that would have to be a core focus of the story, not a consequence of an explanation for a player-retention-focused mechanic.

a wild guess.. well if you respec you probably just going to respec as an oathbreaker . there's no magically unbroken oath.

And there is another big problem with the doppelganger theory in that if you play as a warlock you will see your patron, if you are a paladin you can break you oath...those things could not happen to a doppelganger because a doppelganger would only mimic a warlock, it would not actually have a pact with a patron. A doppelganger would only mimic a Paladin, it would not have any oath that it would need to uphold or that it could break.

I don't think the tadpole-induced doppelganger theory rules any of that out. Once you accept that theory, no perception can be trusted as true, so any perception is possible.

I'm sad I haven't found the right way to explain my retcon thinking about it to you, because I feel like that's the approach with the fewest problems. *poof* We're retconned, however we got here, into the situation we find ourselves after respec. Yes, it also has epistemological ambiguity, but one that player is in complete control of

That is true. There is a way to solve this issue by explaining that the magic used by warlocks mc is not normal but it psychic magic that is directly powered by the mindflayers themselves. Mindflayers are extremely powerful, and can create nearly limitless supply of psychic magic-this explanation is also full of issues but not necessarily unworkable.

Regarding Paladin, a Paladin's oath is born of their genuine belief in their oath, since this doppler is so deeply convinced they are a real person, it is within the realm of possibility that although normally it would not work. The doppler is more tav then doppler. It's why all the origins mcs have something weird with how their powers work.

Shadow: Shar clerics can not heal or use restoration spells from my memory. Yet she can
Astarion: a vampire not harmed by sun
Kar: claims she is from hell and fierce warrior,but can not take on a lvl 4 paladin. (Real Kal could, she is a dop and is weak)
Gale: Needs to feed on magic, as you said, arcane magic is hard to simulate. So mindflayers trick gale.
Laz: not recognized as a warrior by creche, despite being known (likely detect she is an imposter)
Wyll: has memory of glory days, but is utterly weak, super easy impersonation
Dark urge: a doppler who failed to identify / transform. So filled with a desire to dominate all like a minflayer.

Yes, yes, and also yes. But how much of that is because we got it in EA? The story we got was not entirely, but to a good degree, frozen in time three years ago. That's a long time for them to have worked out a lot of story issues.

I think at this point those extremely unlikely paths for the story to go down. Not to mention that Swen confirmed that the Dark Urge can become a god with divinity. Not to mention that what you are describing is well outside of D&D doppelganger power range. They can look like anyone visually but they don't have the capability to mimic the vast range of powers of any class at any time. That's just not how they work and no the tadpoles couldn't gift those ridiculous ranges of power either.

Doppelgangers only have one big gimmick and major threat...if they can surprise you they add 10d6 to initial attack...that's between 10-60 damage so if you can see through their disguise you're good and if not you can be in trouble.

Yeah I'm not buying this doppleganger theory at all, too far fetched, you basically have to twist and reimagine every bit of info we know about these characters for it to fit the theory.

I think respec is just a convenient gameplay feature that doesn't have or need an intricate lore friendly explanation, it's just videogame stuff.

Doppelgangers only have very limited powers really...the polymorph equivalent but their stats do not change based on form. They have advantage and a big surprise hit if they can catch you unaware. They have no spellcasting capabilities, and no proficiencies in wielding any weapons or armor...much less so efficiently. They have mind reading which gives the advantage on Wisdom and Charisma checks so advantage against a bunch of magic. So they literally can't mimic any powers or wield any equipment that the creatures they mimic could, etc. They can't even cast illusions to make it seem like they are casting or wielding anything.

I ... give up.
It seems like you dont even read what i say. :-/

Feel free to help me out ...
Give me any head-canon you have for a person who is supposed to play as Oathbreaker, so it makes sense.

Bcs i have nothing. :-/

Maybe this would be worth its own topic?
Something like "share your story of Oathbreaking" or "why did your Lawfull Good character killed first inocent person they meet before they even seen them"?

Well the Oathbreaker approach was very intentional by Larian, this is what they want...if you want to play Oathbreaker, well, break your oath. I don't see how that is immersion breaking or why it's much of an issue. If you don't want to break your oath then don't break it...either way works. Why would that not be part of the game?

Ok, i try one last time ... focus please.

*How co create Oathbreaker Paladin by Larian studios*
Step 1: Create a Paladin.
Step 2: Play as such Paladin.
Step 3: Break your oath at first possible moment, most likely by killing some civilian.

Why is this immersion breaking?
Bcs as you start your game, you are character that contradicts himself ... your oath is to protect the inocents ... but your intention is to kill inocents.
> Such character concept just dont make sense!

There is nothing wrong in that you *can* break your oath during the game ... having this possibility is good!
Could be executed a lot better tho, but thats not the point here.

What is wrong is that you cant play an Paladin who broke his oath day/week/month/year/decade/"feels like lifetime" ago ... before Nautiloid.
If you would start as Oathbreaker, your Paladin character can be an asshole ... evil as you want, cruel as you want, greedy as you want ... you name it, it dont matter, you can be whatever you want, bcs Oathbreaker is not limited by his Oath ... they can be whatever the hells they want.

If you dont, your Paladin character is a person who uphold his Oath ... and s/he did until now, it defines what they are ... and then at first chance, you break it.
How does that make any sense?
What is that so often mentioned "narrative" behind this?

Imagine ... i dunno, Superman!
Thats a good Paladin character example ...
You go to movie about Superman, and in first scene he murders someone ... no reason at all, no provocation, no previous narative, nothing ... just bcs he wanted to ... does that seem good? It doesnt to me.

Because it's whatever stupid o'clock it is and can't sleep and I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking about Lear and Gloucester, and Cordelia taking out Gloucester's eyes, and wondering how different that is from Durge.

I'll just refer back to my earlier comment ...


There are certainly things I've heard the game will make possible that I don't think I could come up with a plausible head-canon for, and in those cases I simply wouldn't do them.

And the context of my comment was respeccing a paladin who had become an Oathbreaker in the course of the game (as per original post topic), not whether we should be able to pick Oathbreaker at level 1 which I think is your concern, Rag?

Yup

Have you no shame?

To be fair, there are a bewildering array of classes and subclasses in WotR.

If it's as easy to break your Oath as it currently is in EA I would be gladly taking a chance to go back via respec...

I see the respec feature as a mechanic behind the scenes. Not as part of the character's story.

For instance, if I go into the settings and change the lighting, that doesn't mean I have to explain why my character was able to dim or brighten the whole world.

I agree, I like that the oathbreaking mechanic exists, but if I want to play an oathbreaker paladin, I'll often want to get the subclass as soon as possible. From a roleplay perspective, a good opportunity in which I might actually be tempted to break an oath could take many hours to come across, so the game kind of forces me to make an out of character decision in order to play the subclass that I want without delay. This problem is solved if we can pick the oathbreaker subclass during character creation, which I hope we will be able to do in the release version.

I am a bit late, but I actually do have an interesting theory why you can respec.

There are a couple of ways such a drastic change could actually possible. One of those is the cleric "spell" Wonder.

Now, what else could be a wonder that players could pray for? For example resurrecting people that you don't have the body of.
Or summoning, possible long dead, heroes to aid in your quest as some sort of mercenaries!

We just need some sort of high priest who could ask their deity on our behalf and then the agreement of said deity. Maybe we could find one lying around in some dusty catacombs? :thinking:

In all seriousness, I doubt they are actually going to give as that explanation, but it would be a neat little explanation to aid in our suspension of disbelief.
Would also explain why you could not resurrect other dead people or use respec to change your appearance to go undercover or so: "It does not fit into my gods plans." Still a device, but one that actually has some backing in the original P&P Rules.