Yeah I know how it works on P&P I just don't remember using it in solasta but it just sound like an overwatch with an ofensive spell, wich is completly fine with me even if on P&P you can be way more detailed.
I used it all the time in Solasta - ensures you get an early attack in, as enemies close, rather than waiting for your turn and makes a huge difference, and not just for casters. I think it's pretty sad that they didn't include even this basic version.
Yeah I know how it works on P&P I just don't remember using it in solasta but it just sound like an overwatch with an ofensive spell, wich is completly fine with me even if on P&P you can be way more detailed.
I used it all the time in Solasta - ensures you get an early attack in, as enemies close, rather than waiting for your turn and makes a huge difference, and not just for casters. I think it's pretty sad that they didn't include even this basic version.
Agreed on both sentences but this is Larian so you get underwear and all the colours you can dream of for your Dragonborn's scales.
Shove better stay a bonus action. people whining about this are insane, Shove is a terrible waste of an action, if you get done in by a bonus action tis your own fault for not positioning correctly...
Shove better stay a bonus action. people whining about this are insane, Shove is a terrible waste of an action, if you get done in by a bonus action tis your own fault for not positioning correctly...
This has already been discussed at depth in other threads, but some issues with your above are: a.) BG3 shove distance is too far. You don't actually be need to be adjacent to a ledge to be shoved off. If two enemies decide to shove you back-to-back, then it's incredibly hard to put yourself at a position where you won't end up flying off a ledge. b.) The prevalence of insta-death pits. Are you saying that a single action is too costly for something that can be a OHKO?
As for Ready Action. Larian could do that, or honestly just put in a Delay action. Even though it's not available in 5e, it's close enough to Ready and should be simple to implement given that it existed in DOSII.
I guess they just don't want to add the ''dodge action'' for some reason, it just a simple action with a simple effect, I doubt it's difficult to add into the game at any moment wich is kind of weird and confusing to me.
They added it for the monk as one of its second level features -- Patient Defense.
"Attack Rolls against you have Disadvantage and you have Advantage on Dexterity saving throws"
From the FextraLife monk video Time Stamp 7:36 (Don't watch the full video if you wish to avoid spoilers)
For the Monk it costs 1 Ki to 'Dodge' as a bonus action which is the same as it is in PnP 5e. So we know the coding for Dodge exists. Seems like it would be an easy win to include it.
Shove better stay a bonus action. people whining about this are insane, Shove is a terrible waste of an action, if you get done in by a bonus action tis your own fault for not positioning correctly...
I don't know if you didn't play the EA or you simply didn't understand what was happening every time you did, but yours is probably the most insane take on the issue I read so far.
Shove, in the way Larian implemented it, alters the action economy entirely and gives to most combat scenarios a ridiculous vibe. Shove used to be an opportunity cost you had to weight carefully ("I'm giving up my attack to do this. Is it worth it?") which made it entirely situational, EXACTLY AS IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE. Larian's version on the other hand is more powerful AND it costs merely a bonus action, which means that even the AI will spam it every freaking time there's nothing better to do (which, turns out, seem to be freaking often).
So here we have: - a bonus action that can instant-kill if you are anywhere in proximity of a pit or lava/water puddle - a bonus action that makes trivially cheap to break magical sleep - a bonus action that can help to disengage in melee range - maybe more importantly, a bonus action that regardless of its effectiveness is insanely annoying to see abused so often, since it transforms the combat from "Here's a battle of sword and sorcery" to "Holy fuck, is this that Benny Hill sketch from my youth?".
Last edited by Tuco; 15/07/2303:17 PM.
Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
Shove better stay a bonus action. people whining about this are insane, Shove is a terrible waste of an action, if you get done in by a bonus action tis your own fault for not positioning correctly...
Judging by the poll we had a few months back, I guess the majority of the forum is insane then… 🤷‍♂️
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
I don't care too much about shove being an attack action or a bonus action because personally I'm fine with it either way, the main problems I see with shove is that it awakes sleeping characters and that you can sometimes push people too far in my opinion.
Other than that, I think some people here aren't judging it fairly, not every encounter has a lava pool or a bottomless pit you can instakill enemies with, so it is more situational than some make it out to be. And realistically, shoving is a strength check, martial classes get extra attack, so if you're in a situation where pushing someone off a ledge is more valuable than a regular attack, making it an action will arguably allow you to abuse it more. Plus, from what we've seen so far, it is easier to get additional actions/attacks than bonus actions: action surge, potion of speed, haste and haste spores vs thief rogue subclass and a headband that requires you to deal fire damage with a spell in the same turn.
Shove is an action = More uses but higher cost if you fail. Shove is a bonus action = Less uses but lower cost.
No matter what you do, it's always going to be very strong in certain scenarios.
I remember when I was doing an EA playthrough and I landed a perfect sleep spell. It was a thing of beauty, all failed saves on the enemy, fantastic. Like you just slam your hand against your desk and are like damn.
I then end my turn, and the next turn a couple other enemies start shoving their friends awake and proceed to start slapping my guys around as if my perfect sleep never happened.
It was only slightly less infuriating, though still incredibly infuriating, as watching your companions Benny Hill up and down ladders/climbing on the toilet chain.
Yep - it has proved a major annoyance for me on multiple occasions. It's basically a free action for the AI - which it uses a lot (as a decent programmed optimizer would). Certainly in my playthroughs.
I really hope Larian wil consider changing this after release
Shove is an action = More uses but higher cost if you fail. Shove is a bonus action = Less uses but lower cost.
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I don't think you quite understand how the effect of an ability vs the cost of the action are two separate things.
Having it as a bonus action means the effect of Shove is always available for everyone one every single turn. There is nothing to think about except in the extremely rare circumstances where you want to us a bonus action for a different ability.
Action vs. bonus action, Shove still works the same way. And in the current bonus action form, it's always available, which should never be the case except from Feats.
Shove better stay a bonus action. people whining about this are insane, Shove is a terrible waste of an action, if you get done in by a bonus action tis your own fault for not positioning correctly...
I don't know if you didn't play the EA or you simply didn't understand what was happening every time you did, but yours is probably the most insane take on the issue I read so far.
Shove, in the way Larian implemented it, alters the action economy entirely and gives to most combat scenarios a ridiculous vibe. Shove used to be an opportunity cost you had to weight carefully ("I'm giving up my attack to do this. Is it worth it?") which made it entirely situational, EXACTLY AS IT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE. Larian's version on the other hand is more powerful AND it costs merely a bonus action, which means that even the AI will spam it every freaking time there's nothing better to do (which, turns out, seem to be freaking often).
So here we have: - a bonus action that can instant-kill if you are anywhere in proximity of a pit or lava/water puddle - a bonus action that makes trivially cheap to break magical sleep - a bonus action that can help to disengage in melee range - maybe more importantly, a bonus action that regardless of its effectiveness is insanely annoying to see abused so often, since it transforms the combat from "Here's a battle of sword and sorcery" to "Holy fuck, is this that Benny Hill sketch from my youth?".
ive been DMing a campaign for 5 years now. I know how the action economy works. And from my short stint with 5e, i know some things that dont work in it.
Shove is not "situational" it is "extremeley situational" Unless the DM is playing the Monsters very stupidly or the players play it stupidly. There is a grand total of no reasons when you should use shove. In fact,in the 5 years of my ongoing campaign, shove has been used a grand total of zero times.
>abuseable maybe. but i take abuseable over terrible. And for what its worth, martial characters are terrible in 5e anyway. Disegnage doesnt bother me. 3.5 had 5 foot step, 4e had shift. Its only 5e that doesnt do disengage. I dont realy see the issue, all it does is making sure you have to worry about positioning more, which if you ask me is a good thing.
>muh sleep yes, good. Sleep spells are incredibly good CC and having an option to break them is fine by me. Also makes sense. This is something my players used to do in my campaign anyway, because it works from a logical standpoint.
You might be on to something on the shove distance. thats the point im willing to concede.
But other than that, none of your posts convince me. if you turn shove into a full action, it will not get used period. Simple as.
Oh yeah and on action economy: I urge you to play an edition that isnt 5e or games that arent DnD to see it in action. in DnD 4e any fighter can make a basic attack that also shoves at level 1. Suffice to say it does not break anything and it still leaves your minor action (4e equivalent of a bonus action) free to do something else like a Dragon breath. its considered one of the weaker fighter attacks.
This is a 5E though not 4E or any other version, and the way it is supposed to work is quite clear from the 5E rules. That you don't consider it an issue doesn't invalidate the concerns or experiences of others - can it be worked around, sure, should one have to? No.
If anything, it's zero cost and more uses. This is only compounded by the shove distance being insane.
Saying a bonus action is zero cost is an obvious exaggeration, sure, there will be times in which your characters won't have a good opportunity to use their bonus action, but bonus actions offer options beyond pushing people. Also, if shove is an action you will be able to attempt to push more people per turn because, as I mentioned earlier, so far there are more ways to get additional actions than bonus actions.
Originally Posted by Zyllos
I don't think you quite understand how the effect of an ability vs the cost of the action are two separate things.
Come on, be reasonable, sure, I shouldn't have said "... if you fail" because the cost is the same regardless of the outcome, but my point is that an action is generally more valuable than a bonus action and thus has a higher cost on your action economy.
Originally Posted by Zyllos
Having it as a bonus action means the effect of Shove is always available for everyone one every single turn. There is nothing to think about except in the extremely rare circumstances where you want to us a bonus action for a different ability.
The circumstances in which your bonus actions are valuable may vary a lot depending on your class: a berserker, a rogue, a monk and any dual wielder all have good uses for their bonus action that they can use pretty much every turn. The best outcome a shove can have when you really have nothing else to do is a free disengage, because in the situations where pushing an enemy could make a significant difference, it would also be worth sacrificing an attack action for, and like I said, there are more ways to achieve additional attacks than additional bonus actions.
Again, I'm fine with either ruling, I just wanted to bring a couple points up because I didn't think the discussion was judging fairly some aspects.
This is a 5E though not 4E or any other version, and the way it is supposed to work is quite clear from the 5E rules. That you don't consider it an issue doesn't invalidate the concerns or experiences of others - can it be worked around, sure, should one have to? No.
i was using other editions as a reference.
i know how 5e rules work. i also think that 5e rules arent very good. Changing shove is a good change imo.
>muh sleep yes, good. Sleep spells are incredibly good CC and having an option to break them is fine by me. Also makes sense. This is something my players used to do in my campaign anyway, because it works from a logical standpoint.
I think you missed my point. The point is not that enemies have an ability to break sleep, the point is that it literally costs them nothing to do it. Doesn't expend an action, they can basically do it for free as if you never used the spell at all.
The shove distance in PNP is also 5 feet, and takes an action to do so, this is why you never see anyone using it. Even if you use it to knock them prone, the prone condition in PNP only forces them to use half movement to stand up. The prone condition in this game is significantly better.
If you are playing 5e and in 5 years nobody has been using shove I would be honestly really surprised and I would like to see how your fights run including environment (out of curiosity, not critique).
I used it to throw enemies of heights (pushing 5ft, not 20), my barbarian is using it regulary (waiting for his chance to become battlemaster to make it part of an attack with tripping maneuver) as first attack to knock enemies prone to get adantage for his 2 attack and bonus action attack if there are also other party members that will have their turn before the enemy can stand up - or in cases going reckless might not be appropriate... I use it to help party members disengage (either pushing the enemy or them), I use it to get enemies into darkness or fog (or out of it).... but that's how I run encounters and I tend to run them quite demanding (rule of thumb CR = sum of all party members levels).
Shove in 5e is very, very valuable even without the buffs it gets from Larian.
I don't think you quite understand how the effect of an ability vs the cost of the action are two separate things.
Come on, be reasonable, sure, I shouldn't have said "... if you fail" because the cost is the same regardless of the outcome, but my point is that an action is generally more valuable than a bonus action and thus has a higher cost on your action economy.
Sure, maybe you didn't mean to go that far. But, I still think the core argument stands, making Shove a standard action forces choices while a bonus action cheapens the action, making it where it should just be used because it's free, except in situations where a bonus action can be used.
I think other arguments is that it also steps on other Feats/Class Features in the game that allows players to Shove as a bonus action.
The other stuff that others have mentioned is Shove moves a character much, much too far. Maybe this isn't as bad a situation if it really only moved 5ft, but I am only going to go with a maybe.
Originally Posted by KLSLS
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Originally Posted by Zyllos
Having it as a bonus action means the effect of Shove is always available for everyone one every single turn. There is nothing to think about except in the extremely rare circumstances where you want to us a bonus action for a different ability.
The circumstances in which your bonus actions are valuable may vary a lot depending on your class: a berserker, a rogue, a monk and any dual wielder all have good uses for their bonus action that they can use pretty much every turn. The best outcome a shove can have when you really have nothing else to do is a free disengage, because in the situations where pushing an enemy could make a significant difference, it would also be worth sacrificing an attack action for, and like I said, there are more ways to achieve additional attacks than additional bonus actions.
Again, I'm fine with either ruling, I just wanted to bring a couple points up because I didn't think the discussion was judging fairly some aspects.
I always viewed the issue with bonus action Shove as a way to control/disengage for free for any turn you can't/don't want/choose not to some other bonus action instead. It's effectively free for no draw back. That normally requires a class balance Feature or spending a Feat to gain something like this, like Shield Master, Charger Feat, ect.
