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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
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Putting arcane casters in medium armour is min-maxer BS, though. We're talking half-plate. Basically the idea seems to be that your arcane super-nerd decided to suddenly go out into the yard and play in the mud with the squires to learn how to move and jump and roll and parry and dodge while wearing fairly heavy armour.
Why not insist that your character is actually from planet Krypton while you're at it? Half plate doesn't weigh that much and draconic sorcerers already exhist as more rough and tumble casters. That's not to mention plenty of the wizard schools are used mostly for gishing And what part of that stuff you just wrote justifies a bookworm being fully proficient with half-plate and such? Not really any of it, no? Which is as it should be, because wizards are not famous for running around in plate mail, be it full plate or half plate. And we still have the problem that a dwarf with inherent armour proficiency is now suddenly a better pick for wizard than a squishy race that historically is much more likely to push into wizardry, whereas the dwarf has just about zero synergy with a martial class.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
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I mean for the most part you can opt out of it yourself by putting the ability score increases on the races traditional stats, there's nothing to stop you from giving your wood elf +2 dex and +1 wis, the only the races you can't do this with are the ones that got extra ASI's (human, half elf, and mountain dwarf). Indeed, a dextrous elf has become no more dextrus than a dextrous half-orc or human. And an exceptionally strong half-orc has become no stronger than an exceptionally strong halfling. Meanwhile, dwarfs now gain what exactly that they didn't gain before, to make up for the fact that they're as a whole no tougher than gnomes? What advantage does a dwarf fighter have over a gnome fighter, for instance? How about a dragonborn fighter, are they scarier or tougher or stronger than high elf fighters? I can do a whole bunch of stuff, but there's absolutely no way for me to pretend that any races are inherently stronger or tougher or smarter or more coordinated in their movements, because the game plain and simply contradicts that notion in very explicit terms. And the end result, like I said, would seemingly be that the meta will end up being martial races for squishy classes and squishy races for martial classes, because the martial races really don't offer any kind of synergy with martial classes. TBH I find ASI's to be the most boring and flavourless race feature so I don't really care whether they're floating, set, or attached to something other then race. I just don't notice the different between playing a character with 15 in their attack stat instead of 16/17, its only a +1, it doesn't stand out in actual play. When playing instead of building it's features like orcs powerful build letting you carry weight and grapple enemies like your large size, and halfling nimbleness letting you dart through enemy squares, and being able to see in the dark as a dwarf, that actually make me feel like I'm playing something other then a human in a mask. When i play a dragonborn it's because i want to play a awesome dragon person who breaths fire not because i want +1 to my weapon attack, when i play a half orc it's because i want to play a tough orc person whose so tough they keep standing when others would fall unconscious not cause i want +1 to weapon attack. The removal of heavy armour str requirements and tool proficiencies does more to hurt dwarf than the loss of +1 does mountain dwarf - I hope that they've been given new cool flavourful creatures to make up for it. I know other people care about ASI's, and fair enough, but floating asi's don't make races feel the same to me. (I also hope 5e revised/5.1 replaces things like elves keen senses with something more interesting than a perception proficiency that anyone can get from their BG or class, and that they rename subraces to cultures and seperate out learned things like skills and weapons into cultures and keep race/lineage as only the physical things like darkvision and powerful build. But that's beyond the scope of this topic so nevermind me  ) I agree that ASI's are boring, but they're something. Something is generally better than nothing. And ASI's did at least sort of suggest that some species of humanoids are more suited to some jobs than others. I mean, that's not really a controversial concept. You can use dogs to help you herd sheep but I wish you the best of amazing luck trying to train your cat to do that job. You can use cats to keep down mice numbers but your adorable pet pig isn't particularly suited for that task. But it can provide bacon, something your typical hen is awful at. Instead we're not at this nonsensical point where people want to push some "all are equal" narrative, which literally wipes out any differentiation between races to the point where they're all cosmetic variations of human, which is both mindblowingly silly and incredibly boring. Like you, I would rather actually have the Halflings be able to do Halfling stuff, the dragonborn be dragonpeople, the halforcs use that greater size constructively, and so on. But implementing these things tend to be harder and so it gets skipped. And now here we are, no physical attribute differences and no real difference in terms of cool abilities either. Just some lame proficiency garbage that a few people are trying to hype up as if it isn't absolutely terrible.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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[quote=Xurtan]
Its funny because people will unironically say half orcs should be stronger than humans when one of the sample backgrounds for the barbarian is literally a human Jojo walking up to a frost giant. Humans are also exactly as strong as half-orcs when they want to be with Variant Human. Which basically means all other races are forced into specific attribute allocations EXCEPT precious, special humanity who can train to be as strong as a half-orc or as smart as a gnome if they want, but no other race can. To me, it's all kind of silly. This is a world where a human can take hits from an 80,000-pound flying reptile and stay standing, but the idea of a three-and-a-half-foot-tall person being as strong as a six-foot-tall person is absolute madness that destroys all sense of reality.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Putting arcane casters in medium armour is min-maxer BS, though. We're talking half-plate. Basically the idea seems to be that your arcane super-nerd decided to suddenly go out into the yard and play in the mud with the squires to learn how to move and jump and roll and parry and dodge while wearing fairly heavy armour.
Why not insist that your character is actually from planet Krypton while you're at it? Half plate doesn't weigh that much and draconic sorcerers already exhist as more rough and tumble casters. That's not to mention plenty of the wizard schools are used mostly for gishing And what part of that stuff you just wrote justifies a bookworm being fully proficient with half-plate and such? Not really any of it, no? Which is as it should be, because wizards are not famous for running around in plate mail, be it full plate or half plate. And we still have the problem that a dwarf with inherent armour proficiency is now suddenly a better pick for wizard than a squishy race that historically is much more likely to push into wizardry, whereas the dwarf has just about zero synergy with a martial class. "Bookworms" are a silly concept, especially in psudeo fuedal/Renaissance settings. In these settings if you are privlaged enough to have an education your probably going to be a chad too as you'll have access to protein and trainers/equipment. The list of duelist mathematicians and statesmen is a long one. We still have the racial bonuses weapons that can balance out martial classes playing martial races, wed have to see some high quality examples. And beside humanity, the traidional wizard race, is finally able to not be gimped with these rules.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
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Nobody is paying modders. I'm paying 100$ for Larian's game. Wish this was an option. It weakens the differences between races. It means the strongest halfling will be as strong as the strongest half orc. That seems weird. Lol or the healthiest half elf will be as healthy as the healthiest dwarf. Please make this maje sense. Dwarves, elves, and half orcs should not be treated as different style of humans. It is what it us. Lack of options is kewl. But... that's the way it has been for the lifespan of 5e? That's a terrible argument. 18 STR for a Halfling is the same as 18 STR for a Half-Orc. The strongest halfling IS as strong as the strongest half-orc. That's the way it works. If you want to lean on that might as well go back to the ridiculous years of women having different stats from men. Honestly, I like this change and am glad it's the one going live. 18 strength is 18 strength, but the path to 18 was longer for a halfling than for a halforc, and the halforc would have picked up a feat by the time the halfling caught up. So it's still not entirely equal, there's still an adventage, even though the system had become politically correct and allowed the tiny little creature to be "just as strong" as the towering muscle-bound half-orc. But what we have now is bizarro world where stick people are better bruiser and brawlers than the muscle-head races, because stick people races have stuff that might have synergy with martial classes and the muscle-head races generally do not. This, to me, breaks any logic and coherence. And not a single one of the people who think this is awesome can even begin to explain why any of this makes any kind of sense ingame.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
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Putting arcane casters in medium armour is min-maxer BS, though. We're talking half-plate. Basically the idea seems to be that your arcane super-nerd decided to suddenly go out into the yard and play in the mud with the squires to learn how to move and jump and roll and parry and dodge while wearing fairly heavy armour.
Why not insist that your character is actually from planet Krypton while you're at it? Half plate doesn't weigh that much and draconic sorcerers already exhist as more rough and tumble casters. That's not to mention plenty of the wizard schools are used mostly for gishing And what part of that stuff you just wrote justifies a bookworm being fully proficient with half-plate and such? Not really any of it, no? Which is as it should be, because wizards are not famous for running around in plate mail, be it full plate or half plate. And we still have the problem that a dwarf with inherent armour proficiency is now suddenly a better pick for wizard than a squishy race that historically is much more likely to push into wizardry, whereas the dwarf has just about zero synergy with a martial class. "Bookworms" are a silly concept, especially in psudeo fuedal/Renaissance settings. In these settings if you are privlaged enough to have an education your probably going to be a chad too as you'll have access to protein and trainers/equipment. The list of duelist mathematicians and statesmen is a long one. We still have the racial bonuses weapons that can balance out martial classes playing martial races, wed have to see some high quality examples. And beside humanity, the traidional wizard race, is finally able to not be gimped with these rules. Bookworms is pretty accurate when dealing with something that potentially goes boom if you make the equivalent of a small calculus error. You don't do that casually and live. And what racial bonuses do dragonborn and dwarfs get that synergize well with martial classes? Let's hear it, no?
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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That's all the more reason to make sure you are in good physical health as a wizard. You wouldent a cramp sprain or other aliment from poor conditioning to distract you.
Lightning and cold dragonborn might be the most broken race in game with shadowheart support.
A lightning dragonborn bear barbarian with a shadowheart could probably 2 man the goblin camp without sneaking.
Last edited by N7Greenfire; 19/07/23 03:41 AM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Jun 2019
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[quote=Xurtan]
Its funny because people will unironically say half orcs should be stronger than humans when one of the sample backgrounds for the barbarian is literally a human Jojo walking up to a frost giant. Humans are also exactly as strong as half-orcs when they want to be with Variant Human. Which basically means all other races are forced into specific attribute allocations EXCEPT precious, special humanity who can train to be as strong as a half-orc or as smart as a gnome if they want, but no other race can. To me, it's all kind of silly. This is a world where a human can take hits from an 80,000-pound flying reptile and stay standing, but the idea of a three-and-a-half-foot-tall person being as strong as a six-foot-tall person is absolute madness that destroys all sense of reality. Exactly!! there is NO way a little halfling can be as strong as a 6 foot human, NONE no WAy amigo. And that flying 80,000 pound reptile was a wussy 
DRAGON FIRE-AND DOOM Dragons? Splendid things, lad-so long as ye look upon them only in tapestries, or in the masks worn at revels, or from about three realms off...
Astragarl Hornwood, Mage of Elembar - Year of the Tusk
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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I hate the new system as well and would like at least an option/toggle that allows us to use the old system.
And no, light armor and polearm proficiency does absolutely nothing for me as I don't play milk-drinking bookworms.
Sure, I'll wait for a mod if I have to but considering the amount of mods I need it's quite annoying.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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Going by unconfirmed rumour, my human paladin is going to get redundant racial weapon/armour proficiencies, lose 2 points of Dex, but can carry another barrel (?!):
16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,12,14,8,12,14
That's a downgrade.
I want to have a fair archery skill without sacrificing Con, but paladins re MAD and default human allows me to hit the numbers I want. Throwing javelins requires extra clicking and believe you me, all those extra clicks are felt after a couple of hours.
I'll be looking at Mods asap.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Going by unconfirmed rumour, my human paladin is going to get redundant racial weapon/armour proficiencies, lose 2 points of Dex, but can carry another barrel (?!):
16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,12,14,8,12,14
That's a downgrade.
I want to have a fair archery skill without sacrificing Con, but paladins re MAD and default human allows me to hit the numbers I want. Throwing javelins requires extra clicking and believe you me, all those extra clicks are felt after a couple of hours.
I'll be looking at Mods asap. Its all going to depend on the race buff weapons really. If the race weapon bonus is strong enough the redundant proficiency won't matter.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Nope, you loose +1 to everthing, and instead you get +2 to your main stat, and +1 to one offstat. Therefore you cant loose two points of Dex, only one. 16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,12,14,8,12,14 That doesnt seem corect ... 16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 17,13,14,8,11,13 ... if you wand Con to be your second stat, or 17,13,13,8,11,14 ... if you wand Cha to be your second stat, or 17,14,13,8,11,13 ... if you wand Dex to be your second stat.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/07/23 09:35 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Going by unconfirmed rumour, my human paladin is going to get redundant racial weapon/armour proficiencies, lose 2 points of Dex, but can carry another barrel (?!):
16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,12,14,8,12,14
That's a downgrade.
I want to have a fair archery skill without sacrificing Con, but paladins re MAD and default human allows me to hit the numbers I want. Throwing javelins requires extra clicking and believe you me, all those extra clicks are felt after a couple of hours.
I'll be looking at Mods asap. Its all going to depend on the race buff weapons really. If the race weapon bonus is strong enough the redundant proficiency won't matter. No, it's not. Not everyone gives a damn about those race weapons and will use them. I certainly don't and I'm not alone in this. No matter how much you like the change to racial ASI and try to convince everybody how "great it is", I still think that we should have the option to use the old and better racial ASI system. The floating +2/+1 ASI system can rot in hell for all I care.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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Redundancy is okay and expected. There's lots of examples already, e.g. dwarf or elf fighters. But other features of the race should shine. When I make a mountain dwarf fighter, the proficiencies are subsumed, but the darkvision and +2 Str & Con reinforce the archetype.
I would've preferred races get a fixed +1 based on racial archetype, and an overlaying +1/+1 placed as desired.
Making +2/+1 based on class, when class already has a default array, seems kind of pointless. Might as well just omit it entirely.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Nope, you loose +1 to everthing, and instead you get +2 to your main stat, and +1 to one offstat. Therefore you cant loose two points of Dex, only one. 16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,12,14,8,12,14 That doesnt seem corect ... 16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,13,14,8,11,13 ... if you wand Con to be your second stat, or 16,13,13,8,11,14 ... if you wand Cha to be your second stat, or 16,14,13,8,11,13 ... if you wand Dex to be your second stat. Yeah you are right. Humans now have the option to go 17 in str Dex or cha so it's a net buff
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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Nope, you loose +1 to everthing, and instead you get +2 to your main stat, and +1 to one offstat. Therefore you cant loose two points of Dex, only one. 16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,12,14,8,12,14 That doesnt seem corect ... 16,14,14,9,12,14 becomes 16,13,14,8,11,13 ... if you wand Con to be your second stat, or 16,13,13,8,11,14 ... if you wand Cha to be your second stat, or 16,14,13,8,11,13 ... if you wand Dex to be your second stat. Okay, default human is the race that has special relationship with the point buy system; that's its great strength. Specifically, increasing stats below 13 costs 1 point, and increasing stats 13 or higher, 2 points. Human is the one race that can get a whole lot of 14's. Their total modifiers can reach +9, whereas other races cap at +5 or +6. I can play with the point buy system and new +2/+1 ASI to get 16,12,14,8,12,14 (+3,+1,+2,-1,+1,+2) to get total +8. A slight downgrade, but downgrade nonetheless. All your listed permutations are still downgrades under the new system. A high Str/Cha build (16,12,14,9,10,16) under the old system becomes 16,12,13,8,10,16 under the new. You lose a key point in Con and therefore have fewer hps.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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We have the ability score bonuses and the other racial bonuses. The ide was that the ability score was no longer to be tied to race. OK. But not the other bonuses? It seems strange to me that if small races can be strong now, why not big races can be cunning? Why can't human choose to have Gnome Cunning? In fact why can't we compose our bonuses completely freely? That would actually make race only appearance as they seem to want.
What we will get now is that small races will be best for martials and the martial races best for casters. A fighter gets nada from being Human, witch is strange, but Gnome Cunning would be great for a figher to mitigate their mental saves etc. It just creates a new imbalance of racials.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Sep 2022
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17's generally don't matter more than 16's; they both grant +3 bonus.
Now there are some popular exceptions; mountain dwarves starting with 17 Str/Con to get two 18's at level 4, any character aiming for a +1 half-feat like Heavy armour mastery, or players with meta-knowledge of certain stat buffing eyeballs.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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All your listed permutations ... Were wrong, since i didnt realized that main stat gets +2 instead of +1 ... I edited it, but just to make it perfectly clear and corect: 17,13,14,8,11,13 ... if you wand Con to be your second stat, or 17,13,13,8,11,14 ... if you wand Cha to be your second stat, or 17,14,13,8,11,13 ... if you wand Dex to be your second stat. There is lot of odd numbers tho, so i would probably be better to just start over.  I think the best array (without racial bonus) you can get is: 14, 8, 14, 8, 12, 15 ... Wich with racial bonus become: 16, 8, 14, 8, 12, 16
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/07/23 09:43 AM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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We have the ability score bonuses and the other racial bonuses. The ide was that the ability score was no longer to be tied to race. OK. But not the other bonuses? It seems strange to me that if small races can be strong now, why not big races can be cunning? Why can't human choose to have Gnome Cunning? In fact why can't we compose our bonuses completely freely? That would actually make race only appearance as they seem to want. Nobody wants race to be only appearance. Racial ASI are just the worst way possible to underline their differences and the system is getting rid of that. A lv20 halfling barbarian has always been stronger than a lv20 half-orc fighter. Nothing changed except for the fact that the halfing barbarian doesn't have to suffer for the first four levels of his career only to live his fantasy. What we will get now is that small races will be best for martials and the martial races best for casters. A fighter gets nada from being Human, witch is strange, but Gnome Cunning would be great for a figher to mitigate their mental saves etc. It just creates a new imbalance of racials. Races has always been unbalanced, this is just a new way to be unbalanced. Balance is utopic anyways, the least important goal possible to follow in a system that is supposed to revolve around telling stories.
... because it's fun!
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