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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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As someone who wants to run dragonborn eldritch knight, I ain't complaining about these changes nah nah hahahahhaha. Does it make sense? Kind of floating racial stats is similar to Wotr, with their tags. I think it opens a lot of choices which I am more then thankful for. Know here comes my unpopular opinion, no one cares about half Orcs, and halflings or dwarves and the stats prove it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/You are a minority of players, barely 8K of the dwarves make less then 9,4K of 100K people remotely care about these races or play them. Larian making changes that make 90% of the most picked races more appealing is a big win. We should be thankful. Well, but halforcs and halflings loose nothing with the floating stats, your so-called popular races like humans and half elves do loose a lot on the other hand. How is that making 90% more apoealing?
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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As someone who wants to run dragonborn eldritch knight, I ain't complaining about these changes nah nah hahahahhaha. Does it make sense? Kind of floating racial stats is similar to Wotr, with their tags. I think it opens a lot of choices which I am more then thankful for. Know here comes my unpopular opinion, no one cares about half Orcs, and halflings or dwarves and the stats prove it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/You are a minority of players, barely 8K of the dwarves make less then 9,4K of 100K people remotely care about these races or play them. Larian making changes that make 90% of the most picked races more appealing is a big win. We should be thankful. Well, but halforcs and halflings loose nothing with the floating stats, your so-called popular races like humans and half elves do loose a lot on the other hand. How is that making 90% more apoealing? Humans finally get to take 17 on their primary. They got a strait buff there
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2023
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As someone who wants to run dragonborn eldritch knight, I ain't complaining about these changes nah nah hahahahhaha. Does it make sense? Kind of floating racial stats is similar to Wotr, with their tags. I think it opens a lot of choices which I am more then thankful for. Know here comes my unpopular opinion, no one cares about half Orcs, and halflings and the stats prove it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/You are a minority of players, barely 8K of the 100K people remotely care about these races or play them. Larian making changes that make 90% of the most picked races more appealing is a big win. We should be thankful. But this shows that the plurality of player choose humans, which have fewer attributes in BG3. Half-elves and Dwarves are the #3 and #4 most picked races, again which have fewer attributes in BG3. So Larian's changes make 35% of the most picked races less appealing. The changes aren't fundamentally and universally all good or all bad. They're a buff to certain races (at the cost of immersion for some players) and a nerf to others (with a possible benefit of giving human monks better weapons). The latter nerf could at least be addressed by providing the original PHB racial features as an option. I agree that humans got shafted to the point that it deserves to be addressed. However, I still think a toggle between two rules is an unreasonable expectation. If I were to make such a decision, I *might* be persuaded to revert the change if the uproar was big enough, but I certainly would not implement two toggleable rulesets. Far too much added complexity in the system for too little gain. This might seem a small thing to people not familiar with software development, but believe me, in a project this complex, where everything interacts with everything else, there is very rarely such a thing as "almost no effort". There tend to be unintended side effects that have to be considered in advance. If the system is there to stay, expect to have to mod the game. However, I find it odd that they chose to implement a system that leaves a third of all player's characters worse off. And I wonder if there were some illegitimate non-game-related considerations that went into the decision.
Last edited by Ieldra2; 19/07/23 04:52 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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If the system is there to stay, expect to have to mod the game. it can be modded, which we don't know. And even then, there's always the potential problem that a mod is abandoned/not updated or that a mod breaks the game. That's why we want an official solution.
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member
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member
Joined: Feb 2022
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As someone who wants to run dragonborn eldritch knight, I ain't complaining about these changes nah nah hahahahhaha. Does it make sense? Kind of floating racial stats is similar to Wotr, with their tags. I think it opens a lot of choices which I am more then thankful for. Know here comes my unpopular opinion, no one cares about half Orcs, and halflings and the stats prove it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/You are a minority of players, barely 8K of the 100K people remotely care about these races or play them. Larian making changes that make 90% of the most picked races more appealing is a big win. We should be thankful. But this shows that the plurality of player choose humans, which have fewer attributes in BG3. Half-elves and Dwarves are the #3 and #4 most picked races, again which have fewer attributes in BG3. So Larian's changes make 35% of the most picked races less appealing. The changes aren't fundamentally and universally all good or all bad. They're a buff to certain races (at the cost of immersion for some players) and a nerf to others (with a possible benefit of giving human monks better weapons). The latter nerf could at least be addressed by providing the original PHB racial features as an option. I agree that humans got shafted to the point that it deserves to be addressed. However, I still think a toggle between two rules is an unreasonable expectation. If I were to make such a decision, I *might* be persuaded to revert the change if the uproar was big enough, but I certainly would not implement two toggleable rulesets. Far too much added complexity in the system for too little gain. This might seem a small thing to people not familiar with software development, but believe me, in a project this complex there is very rarely such a thing as "almost no effort". There tend to be unintended side effects that have to be considered in advance. If the system is there to stay, expect to have to mod the game. However, I find it odd that they chose to implement a system that leaves a third of all player's characters worse off. And I wonder if there were some illegitimate non-game-related considerations that went into the decision. My fear, is that they may have been pressured by Wotc, who clearly have an agenda on this topic, as with so many other changes and optional rules they have made to 5E in the past 2-4 years. Im not arguing for or against that agenda, Im simply saying they do have one. Another example would be deity choice for Paladin (which I and many others desperately crave). It seems Larian originally planned on having that option for Paladins just like clerics, but that they scrapped it, even after having dialogue and such ready. And I suspect wotc meddling paws in that decision. All that being said, if Larian truly are free to do as they please on this topic, then perhaps a compromise would be in order. Apply the new system as they have done, but add an extra rigid +1 bonus for Shield Dwarf, a rigid (non allocatable) +1 to Half Elves. And just keep the +1 to all for human from the original. Or better yet, keep original for Humans and make a subrace for Humans with the PHB optional rule (cant remember name atm).
"They say he who smelt it dealt it."
Sooo technically... this burnt corpse is your fault officer."
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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If the system is there to stay, expect to have to mod the game. it can be modded, which we don't know. And even then, there's always the potential problem that a mod is abandoned/not updated or that a mod breaks the game. That's why we want an official solution. If you want to homebrew the dms rules you could probably learn modding yourself. Should be relativly simple considering how mod friendly larian is and the fact it's just numbers tweaks.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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The new system sucks balance wise. It completely negates opportunity cost that racial bonuses had. Elves gave you good racial traits but you HAD to have +2 DEX. Half elves had fewer racial bonuses from elven side but they had ASI flexibility and one additional ASI point. Dragonborn have probably the worst racial bonuses but were the only ones that had +2 STR / + 1 CHR. And even though this system was not perfect, simply removing fixed ASI bonuses just tipped the scale even more into imbalance.
Dragonborn and Humans - straight up worst races overall.
Elves - masters of all classes.
Half elves - still keep some elven racial bonuses, but not all and have 1 fewer ASI aka gimped elves.
And f**k off with polearms and light armor. It's not only bad it is boring. More boring that +1 to all ASI, and that says a lot.
All is fixable so easily:
1. Give Half elves their additional +1 ASI
2. Give Shield Dwarves the same
3. Give Variant Human
4. Give Dragonborn some extra features like Darkvision and some dialogue bonuses with persuasion/intimidation
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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As someone who wants to run dragonborn eldritch knight, I ain't complaining about these changes nah nah hahahahhaha. Does it make sense? Kind of floating racial stats is similar to Wotr, with their tags. I think it opens a lot of choices which I am more then thankful for. Know here comes my unpopular opinion, no one cares about half Orcs, and halflings and the stats prove it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/You are a minority of players, barely 8K of the 100K people remotely care about these races or play them. Larian making changes that make 90% of the most picked races more appealing is a big win. We should be thankful. But this shows that the plurality of player choose humans, which have fewer attributes in BG3. Half-elves and Dwarves are the #3 and #4 most picked races, again which have fewer attributes in BG3. So Larian's changes make 35% of the most picked races less appealing. The changes aren't fundamentally and universally all good or all bad. They're a buff to certain races (at the cost of immersion for some players) and a nerf to others (with a possible benefit of giving human monks better weapons). The latter nerf could at least be addressed by providing the original PHB racial features as an option. I agree that humans got shafted to the point that it deserves to be addressed. However, I still think a toggle between two rules is an unreasonable expectation. If I were to make such a decision, I *might* be persuaded to revert the change if the uproar was big enough, but I certainly would not implement two toggleable rulesets. Far too much added complexity in the system for too little gain. This might seem a small thing to people not familiar with software development, but believe me, in a project this complex, where everything interacts with everything else, there is very rarely such a thing as "almost no effort". There tend to be unintended side effects that have to be considered in advance. If the system is there to stay, expect to have to mod the game. However, I find it odd that they chose to implement a system that leaves a third of all player's characters worse off. And I wonder if there were some illegitimate non-game-related considerations that went into the decision. This is basically how I feel. I hate this change as it removes flavor from the game, but making it optional is probably more of a pain than just reverting it. I know other people have stated that they don't like it for lore/immersion reasons plus the nerfed races, but for me it also makes things less interesting. I would have been interested to see someone's halfling barbarian build or maybe I'd even try one myself because it would be a unique combination. But what is unique or fun about that now? They just have the same starting stats as every other barbarian in the world. It's just my opinion, and obviously I'm sure others may like the change. If anything I wish they would have given us a chance to test it or provide feedback on it. They've got a game with a tested ruleset that is set to do really well, and I'm not a fan of last second balance changes, especially when they detract from the previously established lore.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2023
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If the system is there to stay, expect to have to mod the game. it can be modded, which we don't know. And even then, there's always the potential problem that a mod is abandoned/not updated or that a mod breaks the game. That's why we want an official solution. If you want to homebrew the dms rules you could probably learn modding yourself. Should be relativly simple considering how mod friendly larian is and the fact it's just numbers tweaks. The question is whether the files with the rulesets can be uncompressed and understood with easily available tools.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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The new system sucks balance wise. It completely negates opportunity cost that racial bonuses had. Elves gave you good racial traits but you HAD to have +2 DEX. Half elves had fewer racial bonuses from elven side but they had ASI flexibility and one additional ASI point. Dragonborn have probably the worst racial bonuses but were the only ones that had +2 STR / + 1 CHR. And even though this system was not perfect, simply removing fixed ASI bonuses just tipped the scale even more into imbalance.
Dragonborn and Humans - straight up worst races overall.
Elves - masters of all classes.
Half elves - still keep some elven racial bonuses, but not all and have 1 fewer ASI aka gimped elves.
And f**k off with polearms and light armor. It's not only bad it is boring. More boring that +1 to all ASI, and that says a lot.
All is fixable so easily:
1. Give Half elves their additional +1 ASI
2. Give Shield Dwarves the same
3. Give Variant Human
4. Give Dragonborn some extra features like Darkvision and some dialogue bonuses with persuasion/intimidation Humans got strait buffed with the 17 to main stat. Dragonborn can actually play non gimped draconic sorcerers now as well and get the most out of their breath weapon
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Aug 2016
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Humans got strait buffed with the 17 to main stat. You keep saying this as though getting 17 in your main stat is the only thing that matters and there's no possible build in which having +1 to all stats could be beneficial. We get it, you like this new system, but your idea of what is and isn't optimized is irrelevant. Some people (quite a few by the looks of it) prefer the old system and would like an option to bring it back.
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member
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member
Joined: Feb 2022
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The new system sucks balance wise. It completely negates opportunity cost that racial bonuses had. Elves gave you good racial traits but you HAD to have +2 DEX. Half elves had fewer racial bonuses from elven side but they had ASI flexibility and one additional ASI point. Dragonborn have probably the worst racial bonuses but were the only ones that had +2 STR / + 1 CHR. And even though this system was not perfect, simply removing fixed ASI bonuses just tipped the scale even more into imbalance.
Dragonborn and Humans - straight up worst races overall.
Elves - masters of all classes.
Half elves - still keep some elven racial bonuses, but not all and have 1 fewer ASI aka gimped elves.
And f**k off with polearms and light armor. It's not only bad it is boring. More boring that +1 to all ASI, and that says a lot.
All is fixable so easily:
1. Give Half elves their additional +1 ASI
2. Give Shield Dwarves the same
3. Give Variant Human
4. Give Dragonborn some extra features like Darkvision and some dialogue bonuses with persuasion/intimidation Humans got strait buffed with the 17 to main stat. Dragonborn can actually play non gimped draconic sorcerers now as well and get the most out of their breath weapon How on earth you reckon getting a +2 instead of +1 at the cost of +1 in 3 other additional stats baffles me (oh and the one you get for +2 you also get in a fourth stat..). Its not a buff at all, it makes humans less balanced, and makes you have to have more dump stats if anything. You can easily have a +18 at lvl 4 in any stat you wanted as a human anyway. Your 17 gives diddly squat compared to a 16.
Last edited by Odieman; 19/07/23 05:31 PM.
"They say he who smelt it dealt it."
Sooo technically... this burnt corpse is your fault officer."
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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I just don't understand why. And yet you said it yourself ... We want to make our characters in certain way ... we cant. I wouldnt search for anything deeper than that ... We were promised that we will be able to recreate our DnD characters ... we cant. We spend last 2+ years in certain system ... and now that system was changed ... no warning, no explanation, no well nothing actually. It simply doesnt feel right. Especialy since there is so easy solution as implementing both. I mean, its just numbers ... what can be easier than change a number?  Humans finally get to take 17 on their primary. They got a strait buff there Yay! Instead of lame +3 ... they now have cool +3! Ehm ... what exactly is the buff again? O_o
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 19/07/23 05:59 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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As someone who wants to run dragonborn eldritch knight, I ain't complaining about these changes nah nah hahahahhaha. Does it make sense? Kind of floating racial stats is similar to Wotr, with their tags. I think it opens a lot of choices which I am more then thankful for. Know here comes my unpopular opinion, no one cares about half Orcs, and halflings or dwarves and the stats prove it. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/You are a minority of players, barely 8K of the dwarves make less then 9,4K of 100K people remotely care about these races or play them. Larian making changes that make 90% of the most picked races more appealing is a big win. We should be thankful. Well, but halforcs and halflings loose nothing with the floating stats, your so-called popular races like humans and half elves do loose a lot on the other hand. How is that making 90% more apoealing? Humans finally get to take 17 on their primary. They got a strait buff there I don't fight you in that, since I normally don't play humans and am not passionate about them, but judging by the many threads and comments here in the thread I think a lot of people see it differently.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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I just don't understand why. And yet you said it yourself ... We want to make our characters in certain way ... we cant. I wouldnt search for anything deeper than that ... We were promised that we will be able to recreate our DnD characters ... we cant. We spend last 2+ years in certain system ... and now that system was changed ... no warning, no explanation, no well nothing actually. It simply doesnt feel right. Especialy since there is so easy solution as implementing both. I mean, its just numbers ... what can be easier than change a number? Humans finally get to take 17 on their primary. They got a strait buff there Yay! Instead of lame +3 ... they now have cool +3! Ehm ... what exactly is the buff again? O_o Because a 17 is 1 asi from a +4 meaning they can now dip into a half feat for free essentially. Or pick up one of the quest related asi boosts to get +4 without any feat use at all @fylimar it's mostly the same handful of players every thread who don't like this change. The vast majority of the dnd community likes more customization not less. Sure there will always be tradionalists, but that doesn't mean their desires are good for the wider audience, hopefully mods will give the tradionalists what they want.
Last edited by N7Greenfire; 19/07/23 06:37 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Dec 2020
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I just don't understand why. And yet you said it yourself ... We want to make our characters in certain way ... we cant. I wouldnt search for anything deeper than that ... We were promised that we will be able to recreate our DnD characters ... we cant. We spend last 2+ years in certain system ... and now that system was changed ... no warning, no explanation, no well nothing actually. It simply doesnt feel right. Especialy since there is so easy solution as implementing both. I mean, its just numbers ... what can be easier than change a number? Humans finally get to take 17 on their primary. They got a strait buff there Yay! Instead of lame +3 ... they now have cool +3! Ehm ... what exactly is the buff again? O_o Because a 17 is 1 asi from a +4 meaning they can now dip into a half feat for free essentially. Ir pick up one of the quest related asi boosts to get +4 without any feat use at all @fylimar it's mostly the same handful of players every thread who don't like this change. The vast majority of the dnd community likes more customization not less. Sure there will always be tradionalists, but that doesn't mean their desires are good for the wider audience, hopefully mods will give the tradionalists what they want. I mean, I understand them, humans are their favorite race and they got changed very substantially. I have the luck, that most of the races, I like to play, tiefling, halfling, gnome, elf, are not really changed at all, only half elfs, who I like to play too ( mostly because of female face 1) got the short stick.
"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."
Doctor Who
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Ehm ... what exactly is the buff again? O_o Because a 17 is 1 asi from a +4 meaning they can now dip into a half feat for free essentially. Ir pick up one of the quest related asi boosts to get +4 without any feat use at all While 16 is exactly 1 ASI from a +4 ... And as you get +1 to everything, you can set your secondary (no change here), tertiary, quaternary, and quinary ability scores to odd numbers, and get better results in general. So ... nope, still not seeing the buff. O_o I can understand there are certain builds that dont care about anything but single Score ... not sure if i would call them good builds, but that is matter of taste. And i totally understand that in theese VERY SPECIFIC cases, it may seem at first sight as better choice ... But that hardly makes it straight forward pure buff. You may say "yay i have my feat" ... and you indeed have it ... Over the cost of worse spell DC and worse saving throws ... or lower HP and worse Constitution saving throws, affecting both your concentration holding and your resistance against certain spells. I can see this being matter of priorities ... But i just cant find the buff there. :-/
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Aug 2016
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The wider audience isn't a factor as I'm not advocating for the removal of the new system. I want an optional toggle to go back to the old system. There are no wider audience concerns here, this would be a win for everyone.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2017
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Dwarves are one of the more favored faces. Like top 3 or 4. That's pretty good. Besides, if that's enough to poo poo certain races why bother giving options. Just require everyone to be human. That's what they did for DOS1... and, promptly added non humans in DOS2. Hmmm.. Plus, I thought Larian hates the fact that human male fighters are so popular so nerfing non humans seems counter productive. Though humans got nerfed too.
I didnt think anyone has claimed that the game is now 'unplayable' because of these stat changes, though. Were just asking for the options for the standard rule be at least an options. Options are good, yeah? Just like having the option fir rolling stats and hit points would be nice. I want my strength 4, wisdom 4, intelligence 17, chr 14, con16, dex 8 character. Lolz I also want my level 10 wizard with 10hp. Thanks.
Last edited by Volourn; 19/07/23 06:36 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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The wider audience isn't a factor as I'm not advocating for the removal of the new system. I want an optional toggle to go back to the old system. There are no wider audience concerns here, this would be a win for everyone. There actually is wider audience to concider ... One group are people who want old system ... Another group are people who want new system ... And third group (probably bigest one, since it contains many people from both previous groups) are people who want both. So i would totally appeal on wider audience! Its just that its argument in your favour, rather than against it.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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