Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Is the new racial attribute system optional?

Okay, but
1.) Why does this mean that "humans are the supreme wizard race?" Another explanation(s) is just that "this specific human became a goddess for [essentially any] reason." It doesn't imply anything about humans' aptitude for wizardry in general, let alone innate intelligence.
2.) How does this connect to humans getting higher or equal bonuses to intelligence compared to other races? Is Mystra favoring humans, granting them bonuses to Int while they're in the womb? Or is she favoring humans, granting a stronger connection to the weave to less-intelligent humans?

Does the size of a brain have anything to do with it? You know, not in fantasy but in reality. Also, im not sure Mystra is really a HUMAN, as she is a god created from Shar and selune. She may take the form of a human.

this is just from a quick search, im suspending my own intelligence on this matter, we should look up a peer reviewed article.

https://neuroscience.stanford.edu/news/ask-neuroscientist-does-bigger-brain-make-you-smarter

Humans have a higher concentration of powerfull wizards than probably every other race combined. You can try to bring up population size being the reason but by that logic we should see dozens of goblin archwizards.

Humans also have the most high end sorcerers, by far.

The greatest feats in magic have been accomplished by humans.

Mystra is the reason anyone can use the wave at all. But yes she does favor humans, she's had numberous human arch mage Paramores

Let's not get into real world science here. Other races can be smarter because of physical reasons that'd we'd understand, physical reasons that are beyond real-world humanity's current understanding, or simply "Because Magic." E.g., elves, dragons, etc. are inherently magical.

I'm getting my knowledge from forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Mystra -> "a peasant girl with rudimentary magical training but an aptitude for spells became the new Goddess of Magic"
(I am assuming this peasant girl is human).

It is still valid to consider population size combined with WotC's propensity to make humans famous. The lack of powerful goblin wizards is even more easily explained: they're seen as vermin and thus are often killed, their societies are more chaotic which inhibits wizardly growth, and they are a historically (which matters, given we're talking about characters in lore) Evil race. Finally, are goblins more populous than humans?

Humans have the most # of high end sorcerers for arguably the same reasons: they're the most populous species, they are written about more often, and their society is so organized that people are able to go to wizard schools and gain power. Same for "greatest feats of magic have been accomplished by humans."

I haven't seen it stated in the D&D lore that Mystra is specifically favoring humans. If you have a source, I'd be interested in reading it.

But if it is true that Mystra favors humans, it doesn't necessarily follow that humans have equal intelligence compared to other races. She could just be giving them more tools, spell knowledge, etc to more easily succeed. And once you become sufficiently advanced as a wizard, you can easily use your power to gain even more power. Unless you (or the official 5e lore) is specifically stating that "Mystra raises the intelligence of humans"..?

Here ya go

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Chosen_of_Mystra

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Weave_anchor

She favors humans to the point she gives them exclusivly(I think there may be a half elf in there) extra power.

Also as a side note if you are a dude she may gender bend you for a time to increase your connection to the weave.

Good read, I knew she had died, and AO gave the power to another (Midnight) I learnt something new thanks,

I just want to throw my hat in the ring here and say that I'm tired of hearing that I'm being given more options by a system that actively takes options away from me.

Tasha's is an optional ruleset and should remain optional. If these changes are all about freedom of choice and variety than you can't make any arguments about why people shouldn't be given the freedom to recreate their characters as they are on the TTRPG using the original racial ability scores.

I don't want to mod my game. I want options within the game.

If I can pick my penis I should be able to pick which racial ability scores I want to use.

Almost every race has a God of magic. Not just humans.

Thanks! Rip non-human races I guess.

However, this still doesn't explain why humans in general should have more (or equal) intelligence compared with other races. Imo, the most appropriate solution would be some background or feat that was exclusive to humans (and maybe half-elves): "Mystra's Favored" that grants you Int and/or some other bonus to spellcasting. But wizard PCs who *aren't* chosen by Mystra herself shouldn't have this exceptional wizard affinity which presents itself as increased intelligence. Whereas gnomes, for example, *all* have Gnome Cunning, a "strong affinity for all things magical," including "natural grasp of the arcane", and general affinity for illusion magic.

There's also the unfortunate overlap between smarts-intelligence and wizard-related intelligence. Being given exceptional magic affinity shouldn't necessarily make you smarter in general. Unfortunately, this is completely baked into the 5e ability score system and can't really be feasibly separated...

Mystra is the god of magic, atlest on Torill, as she is the Weave itself no wizard is allowed to cast spells, no matter the wizards race, if she doesn't want them too, the only easy yo get around her is to use the shadowweave.

Other races have gods of magic. Nothing you wrote disputes what I wrote.

And those gods of magic can't cast arcane spells if Mystra doesn't let them, she is the top god of magic.

Humans having more more arch wizards than any other race has actually a very simple explanation beside population numbers and that is the most important human trait... ambition. Elves and gnomes are more suited to be wizards, but they generally lack the ambition that drives a human.

The floating ASI change affects more than humans, shield dwarves and half-elves... what's the point in having multiple tiefling subraces now? Just a different cantrip and 2 spells at 3rd and 5th level? Under the good old core system there was an actual difference between Asmodeus tieflings and Zariel tieflings, where one was more suited to casters and the other was slightly tilted towards melee. Mephistopheles tieflings were always in a strange situation, having the same ASI as Asmodeus tieflings, just different spells.

After reading what was posted here a bit more, I think I’m getting the main problem with this change.

Apart from min-maxing considerations and races that end up with a real disadvantage, people feel that this change adversely affects the identity of Faerun’s races. And with that…..I actually agree. The races lose distinctiveness, which makes the choice of race less significant. In many contexts, I’d see this as a good thing, but as it seems to me, the (original) rules that apply to races are an expression of a distinctiveness that exists in the lore, and changing to the current system introduces more arbitrariness into the world and reduces diversity. Faerun’s races mostly maintain their distinctiveness, for whatever reason, and most players actually like that fact. Playing a dwarf should not feel like playing a human, otherwise why make the distinction in the first place? Attribute scores are only part of the race package, but even so an argument can be made that the rules should continue to reflect this distinctiveness.

So while the change may not affect most characters – after all you can just apply the new attribute adjustments in a way that reflects the old rules - it makes the world feel different. And that is significant. Some people do not like how it feels now, with more arbitrariness and less diversity. It is a minor thing to me, probably because I’m not so invested in Faerun’s lore in the first place, but I do, in fact, feel the same.

+1 This!. Well Put.

Racial ASIs have never been a major contributor to my perception of races. My Lizardfolk getting +WIS doesn't make him feel more like a Lizardfolk. His Hold Breath, Swim Speed, and scaly hide giving an AC bonus so he doesn't need to wear armor like softskins is what makes my Lizardfolk feel like a Lizardfolk. My Lizardfolk druid plays wildly differently than my Dragonborn Druid or my Half Orc Druid because he has totally different base physical attributes and an alien mindset I bring into the roleplay.

My Lizardfolk druid frequently rips into his opponents' bodies and tears out chunks of flesh to swallow mid-fight both as a beast and as a caster and thinks nothing of it. I took Primal Savagery so I could double down on the biting and clawing means of dealing damage outside of Wildshape too. He uses stealth tactics, gained from his racial proficiencies, like a true hunter and takes to the water whenever available so he can ambush his prey by dragging them down into the water with him with Thorn Whip.

My Dragonborn Druid has a strong sense of community and an even stronger work ethic owing to his Clan based heritage. He has the Guidance and Produce Flame cantrips so he can help guide others through dark paths and aid them in whatever tasks they hope to achieve. In battle, he leads with a blast of his poison breath both as an effective alpha strike and as a deterrent, as he'd prefer to resolve conflict without taking a life when he can. His heritage coming from a green dragon strengthens his fondness for nature, but it also leaves him with a drive to undo the harm his draconic ancestors did to the land and its people. To that end, he uses their own affinity for poison to leap into toxic environments without worry for his own safety to better protect those that are less resilient than himself.

My Half Orc Druid has built his entire identity around being tough. From his harsh upbringing as a street fighter to his new self-discovery as nature's protector, he's always relied on his ability to take a hit and keep going, and now that he has something more on the line to fight for he finds his natural resilience more of a boon than ever. His orcish savagery mixes with his animal instincts, creating a terrible force of violence that rips and tears his foes to pieces, but his discipline and appreciation for the druidic teachings let him stop himself before he takes things too far.

So there ya go. Three druids who think and play very differently from one another and are absolutely slathered in delicious racial flavoring despite them all having the same ASI spread (CON/WIS, though the Half Orc has +2 CON and the Lizardfolk +2 WIS, except the Dragonborn who has a +1 to INT so he can get 14 there to better play up his scholarly side). A big part of that racial flavor just being me choosing class options that I thought suited the character I was playing to encourage a more race-appropriate playstyle.

Not sure if this has been brought up before in this thread, but if so, I'm just chiming in there:
To me, the feeling of 'racial identity' in the game is best served by way of NPC reactions and dialogue options (and even plot branches if I remember well). Much better at least than a mere fixed stat bonus could ever make me aware about what race my character has.

True, but if I played a drow, then "Other folk expect me to move with uncommon grace [+N DEX]" would definitely be part of it. Even if I personally had low DEX, it would matter that that expectation exists, and the racial ASI expresses it.

Not sure I can quite follow. Why would a stat bonus on your char sheet, especially when you have low total Dex, express the world's expectation of you having high Dex better and more meaningfully than any NPCs letting you know: "Aren't you elf types supposed to be particularly nimble and stuff? You can sneak in that camp and steal the McGuffin, I'm sure"?

That stat bonus expresses something about the world, not necessarily about my character. Exactly that is why the expectation exists and thus why that NPC can plausibly say such a thing.

I'm not saying it's super-important. But it does work that way.