Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General The Inevitable Romance Poll

Knowing there's going to be a shapeshifting villain in the game opens up a lot of potentially interesting situations, particularly some creepy ones involving the romance plotlines.

Imagine a scenario where you defeat one of the game's main bosses merely because The Dark Urge compelled you to murder one of your companion or lover that one time. I suppose having Orin and the Dark Urge connected might preclude that.

I'm also interested how some scenes will play out when you might already know someone you're talking to is really Orin.

Don't know if you know or how many on this forum would know. But I get the same vibes from Orin as I got from Morinth in Mass Effect. And there is a lot of potential here...like is Lae'zel even a real person? What it it's just Orin stalking the party...not likely but could theoretically happen. Or if you could create an alliance with Orin where she kills and replaces one of your companions and nobody else at camp is the wiser. There's a lot of potential for this to develop in all sorts of ways.

I think the issue is that you are falling into the same trap a lot of others do, which is to see things in a binary way where anyone who is not very explicity evil must then be good, with no meaningful consideration given to what being neutral represents. Simply not going along with evil acts does not make you good-aligned. Ditto for simply "approving" of good acts.

Also, the lore on the Harpers is very clear that they are not considered a truly good organization. They are the classical neutral entity, with a lot of members whose morality is at least very questionable. That's why Khelben Arunsen and Laeral Silverhand were constantly at odds with them, despite their having been instrumental in creating the organization, and why eventually they broke from the Harpers to create a new rival organization, the Silver Stars. The Harpers are very much an "ends justify the means" organization, which is definitely not good. And as for Jaheira specifically, no it wasn't just mechanics. She was very much always on the neutral side, and would simply (and very grumpily) go along with the good acts of a good PC. And from the little I've been able to see of her thus far, she is exactly that way in BG3, an "ends justify the means" character who will work with anyone, evil inclusive, so long as her interests are being served.

As for Wyll, it's a metter of one's perspective about making a pact with a devil. For you, it's a mistake borne of desperation. Fair enough. For me, it's an evil act. So even if it were under desperate circumstances, it fits the "ends justify the means" approach to things. But I am open to the view that he (way more so than SH) is a potentially "redeemable" character. But again I would note, we can here only talk about where each of these characters begins the game, and what their possible alignment is at the point when we first meet them. What happens afterwards entirely depends on the PC's actions, and therefore cannot be discussed in any meaningful way because it will vary from player to player and playthrough to playthrough.

While you make some interesting points, it kind of falls apart for me when you characterize Neutral as ends-justify-means. To me, Neutral is more about not being evil and protecting the innocent only if you feel like it, but Good is just as able to weigh action and consequence as anyone else and to decide whether they can live with a distasteful act that leads to a good consequence. This isn't a philosophical distinction; it is just based on fun. Good characters who must always do the good thing (as judged by the dev or DM) even if the consequence will be greater evil should be given the opportunity to choose instead. It will result in greater character development because they have to choose, followed with consequences of being wrong and all that, such as cynicism, guilt, etc.

It sure seems like Wyll is written to be more good than neutral, all the more edgy because of his patron.

Shadowheart is the most obvious choice.

But Karlach second place? What’s up with that 😂

If you choose to make a pact with a devil you are evil. No exceptions. If said pact is 'forced' then there's wiggle room.

Question to all:

There is a train approaching a particular track. On this track is about 1,000 people who cannot move out of the way. You can change which track the train is on by pulling a lever, but the only way to pull the lever is to make a pact with a devil that owns the station. Is it more evil to make a pact with the devil to save 1,000 lives, or is it more evil to let 1,000 people die because you don't want to make a pact with the devil?

Answer: Any pact made with the devil will lead to 10x that number being killed. And, that's lowballinh the number. So, making the pact is evil. Not making the last is, while sad, is the good choice. Sometimes there is no easy out. Devils feast on the weak, and twisted and corrupt them. That's literally how they work.

Taking a pact with the devil means selling your own soul in exchange for saving 1000 lives. It’s an ultimate sacrifice in the name of good. The act itself is good, but it will lead to greater evil to corrupt your soul in the end.

Not taking a pact is selfish, but not really evil. People will die without your interference. But you’re not evil by choosing not to sacrifice your soul in order to save them.

get outta here with that awful philosophical exercise.

My guess is that it's based on what was shown in the last Panel from Hell; her romance arc seems very nice, wholesome and "normal".


Regardless of which is considered (more) evil, I'd not make the deal. Making deals with devils usually ends badly or at the very least massively in their favour. So I guess those people are minced meat. Though really, there's no reason to think all 1000 would die. Some would just be badly hurt and some would even get away with mere scratches.

Ah yes, trains. Infamous for leaving mere scratches in head-on collisions in philosophical thought experiments. What if it's everyone you know on the track, with their heads neatly arranged and fastened to the track right beneath where the train runs, such that everyone you know and/or love has their head split open and splattered if you don't make a deal with the devil?

They plonked a pretty face on her model with a pleasant voice. Not to mention a large but well proportioned physique. Gym girls look great.

Personality-wise she's potty-mouthed but direct. Got less SH sass or Lae'zel spite. Seems to be a well intentioned too.

For combat, she's a heavy-hitter. Doesn't hurt having that.

Oh yeah, and she's also got that new girl sparkle.

I suppose it depends on the price of the pact and my knowledge of what happens in the afterlife.

If, for example, I'm selling my soul so those thousand people get fifty more years of life and then they move on to a great after-life, what did I sell my soul for? Now I'm screwed, and just cause I delayed their glorious after-life for fifty years.

And what happens if I sell my soul? Do I get turned into a devil, and if I'm a devil, do I go around killing folks? Will I end up killing more than a thousand people?

Or will I be pushed inside some coin and fed to an infernal machine, disappearing forevermore after one excruciating moment of unbearable pain?

I'm gonna have to see this contract. I need details.

I dunno.

I'm just gonna roleplay my character and see if they vibe with anyone.

Yes, all this. The answer is: it depends, because the setup doesn't account for subsequent consequences from that decision to make that pact with a devil. Saving 1,000 today but being instrumental in the suffering/deaths of millions down the road is not a good deed.

Yes, all this. The answer is: it depends, because the setup doesn't account for subsequent consequences from that decision to make that pact with a devil. Saving 1,000 today but being instrumental in the suffering/deaths of millions down the road is not a good deed.[/quote]

Agreed. Which will impact the romances with either Wyll or Karlach. If I were DMing Decent to Avernus I would accept an ends-justify the means decision to use a soul coin to power an infernal machine because the lives of entire city are at stake and you even have a chance to redeem the ruler Avernus. So the destruction of one evil soul would shift your soul to evil but not condemn it.

But if Karlach is using these to keep on living? That's just evil. In 6 days we'll know if the youtubers who floated the soul coin theory are correct . . . (or probably 10 days because I don't expect to finish downloading before the weekend)

We just don't know Wyll's story now - I wanted to save him from his contract before. Will I still feel the same 🤷‍♂️?

I voted Gale, but I'm honestly a little overwhelmed by all the interesting choices for my first run. I'm probably going LG Paladin Tav, so other than the evil/unholy options (Minthara, Astarion, Lae'zel) there's a bunch of other possibilities. Could end up going with Karlach or Halsin. I look forward to spending an hour deliberating it in camp lol.

Yeah, I really don't like this theory. That is not what I was hoping we could do with the soul coins (I wanted to set the souls free!).