Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by AusarViled
Good as shown in games is generally a fully self absorbed desire to impose your own will to fix what is persumed as a problem in another individual without their consent. Eg: Paladin sees an orc arguing and yelling at a women, assumes the orc is attacking smites him under oath, later learns the orc was the husband and the argument was about where to eat. The above is why good does not exist in games, as the good option would be to close your eyes to the conflict and watch from afar as the orc yells at his wife, and allow events to unfold without imposing your will - this would be seen as a chaotic Evil act in dnd.

The above example although being simple can be seen in virtually all dnd and pathfinder in general, angels and celestial just run around and do stuff on a whim with no rhyme or reason because *we are good*. Demons are actually more good then the good guys as they are free with full meritocracy. Eg: Scothbenoth and Baphomet: allow people to serve them of free will, elevate worthy with power, weapons, fame, homes and treat people fairly. Now compare this to angel Zarial and others: pressure followers to pray consistently, take powers from followers for slightest reason, provide nothing in return, take claim for their victories, highly strict codified leadership, no way to gain power without dying and binding your soul to good loosing your soul, and your memories.

Aka tldr good is probably more evil then evil. Or at minimum could be argued to be the case. So it provides a lot more room to RP and generally makes more sense from a Human perspective

So firstly closing your eyes and walking away from the situation would be neutral. You don't know the circumstances, leaving the situation is an act without moral weight one way or the other. As for saying demons are free with a full meritocracy, they're the most brutal, savage kind of meritocracy that uplifts destruction, corruption and has no place for compassion destroying the weak without a second thought. They don't care about who ranks where under them because they're always the ones on top. They encourage slavery and abuse of power, creating a framework where you seek power to have it over others. They don't treat people fairly, they're cruel, petty, they don't care about the lives of their followers beyond what value they can extract, and upon death you're consigned to eternal slavery that may likely involve your soul being consumed to power the machinery of destruction and corruption. And the forces of fiends think nothing of subverting and threatening potential recruits, creating circumstances that would lead people to follow them or just preying on people's worst instincts or weaknesses or traumas, rather than trying to actually uplift them.

Meanwhile angels actually allow people to come to them of free will, being honest in their expectation of selflessness and honor. They seek to heal and protect people, to uplift the weak and improve them, rather than casting them aside. Their highly codified structure is a true meritocracy where people can actually prove themselves without killing or ruining those above them. They're expected to use theit growing power and status for the betterment of all, not just themselves and if they're notwilling to do that, they won't be killed for trying to peacefully leave.


What you mention in 1 is true. But you must remember that those concepts of slavery, torture cruelty are human society morality really only past 80 years. For thousands of years we humans tortured one and other and it was seen as a notion of good. The catholic church in particular sacrificed childreen and women on the pyre to Molek / Moloch and it was celebrated by thousands under a roar of applause. Rome made childreen as pleasure dolls for rich in return for them providing troops, food and jobs to the common public. The notion is exclusively modern human. Those societies thought they where acting in good. Who are we to judge them with modern knowledge / ideas... the point being good is subjective. Demons are no more good then us, good is just a perspective.

Last edited by AusarViled; 28/07/23 08:51 PM.