Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Which companion(s) won't make it?

To the both of you I would say this: for the sake of argument, let's assume you guys are correct about your "brainwashing" thesis (which is entirely possibly what Larian has written for her). For me, that still doesn't change much. Even if someone were brainwashed or conned or manipulated into their actions, if they committed evil acts, especially acts that caused irreversible harm to innocent people, they are still very much responsible for those acts. They don't get to use the "i was brainwashed" line to absolve themselves of their culpability. They still have to atone for what they did, which includes suffering harsh consequences for what they did. And note, I very specifically don't say doing good things will absolve them, because it doesn't. Doing good things now does not cancel out the evil things one did previously, because if you killed someone, that is irreversible. Saving someone today doesn't do a damn thing for that person you killed yesterday.

That would depend on the god offering atonement wouldn't it? I can see Illmater demanding that she endure some pain, Helm requiring her to stand vigil and Aumanator demanding that the restitution fit the crime.

But Lathander might just think that recovery of her memories is the dawn of a new day and grant her redemption without cost.

Is it true that in DND gods are more of a "if you're needing help in 'x', you'll pray to 'y'"? So if you're in a dark alley trying to get home safe, you'd say a quick prayer to Shar to help you home?

That is true. Though Selune would be who you pray to for protection at night

In the burning inn there is some legal document about a man found guilty of murder in Baldur's Gate. On his confession that he murdered at the behest of some deity, the magistrates commuted his sentence to exile, so as to not anger said deity.

It makes sense in a polytheistic society with actual clerics, people are careful around all deities.

N7Greenfire is correct about Selune in this instance... But that's not because Shar is evil, nor that she wouldn't answer the prayer....

Many evil Gods are being prayed to by non-evil, non-followers: Talos [Storm] and Umberlee [Seas] for instance, would be asked to stay their hands as the praying ones embark on a voyage.
But Shar is the God of Night, Loss, Secrets... She is weird.

I have struggled with trying to come up with a scenario where a non-follower would pray to Shar. I could not think of one. Shar is weird. She's also one of the most important Deities in the Forgotten Realms, with probably the most written about her.. But Shar remains stupidly weird.

Yes, night - but not for navigating the Stars, that would be Selune again. Yes, loss, but no 'Prevent loss for a tithe' or something. That's not how she operates *at all*
Maybe secrets? "NIghtsinger, help me keep this secret?" Yeah, possibly. It'd have to be something awful, though. Like; 'I secretly hated my mom and stabbed her in the eyeball but now I miss my mom' and there is no one else to pray to.

hmm, what about forgetting a terrible truth? or something awful that was done to you? Sorry, trying to find some neutral reason someone would pray to her.

I think I actually read about it once that this is exactly the reasons why non-evil people pray to Shar.
She is the goddess of Loss - you pray to her when you lost someone dear to you, when you had trauma and similiar.
You pray to hear, so that she takes the pain away from you, when it is too much to endure.

Iirc, there used to be a neutral order of Sharrans that focuses on that aspect. Helping the desperate to forget what hurts them.

Her wishing to end all existence is not *that* common knowledge.

To the both of you I would say this: for the sake of argument, let's assume you guys are correct about your "brainwashing" thesis (which is entirely possibly what Larian has written for her). For me, that still doesn't change much. Even if someone were brainwashed or conned or manipulated into their actions, if they committed evil acts, especially acts that caused irreversible harm to innocent people, they are still very much responsible for those acts. They don't get to use the "i was brainwashed" line to absolve themselves of their culpability. They still have to atone for what they did, which includes suffering harsh consequences for what they did. And note, I very specifically don't say doing good things will absolve them, because it doesn't. Doing good things now does not cancel out the evil things one did previously, because if you killed someone, that is irreversible. Saving someone today doesn't do a damn thing for that person you killed yesterday.[/quote]

I know, you didn't play teh game, but if you did, you would know, that Shadowheart actually did not commit any evil act, while with us. On the contrary, she is happy, when we help the refugees, gives you approval, if you help children and animals and she shows a glowing from time to time, which actually is rumoured to be

I know, you didn't play teh game, but if you did, you would know, that Shadowheart actually did not commit any evil act, while with us. On the contrary, she is happy, when we help the refugees, gives you approval, if you help children and animals and she shows a glowing from time to time, which actually is rumoured to be [/quote]

Yeah she's essentially a baby. She was totally mind wiped, we don't even know if she was actually part of a suicide mission or not. The only experiences she has are theoretically the suicide mission and then the ship.

Then we get into the whole craziness of the nautiloid itself, which is seemingly not allinged with the absolute. And we know the Dark Urge got mind wiped too. For all we know we got regular tadpoles that came under the effect of the absolutes magic once we phased back to Faerun and "Shadowheart" was an identity created by the mindflayers to try and make sure she kept the artifact safe and she would have turn into a mindflayer in a week.

I don't have a problem with anything she may have done in the past due to manipulation, brainwashing, etc. Especially not when dealing with the gods. If you play D&D you'd know that you are always just one or two saving throws gone wrong from potentially killing one of your friends...mind control abilities are not that uncommon and the person acting under the influence of mind control cannot be held accountable for the things they've do...that's basically an objective fact. Fail a saving throw against dominate person and you are not in control of your body or your actions anymore...at all. At that point blaming the person being mind controlled is the same as blaming the knife for the actions of the wielder...in the most literal sense.

As for the part about her actions and glowing...she is clearly a good person, and her heart is in the right place and

Sorry, I somehow missed your answer there.

But to address this, as far as the background we are given, she and a couple of others where memory wiped and send to recover the artifact. Then we meet her and she doesn't really like evil actions. Thats it.

She is someone who spouts the Shar-is-actually-good propaganda and wears a bunch of Shars symbols. She never adapts her propaganda to gain our trust. By all accounts, she is incredibly suspicious. A good Sharran would not be suspicious, which gives -in my opinion at least- credence to the brainwashing theory. Maybe she was a Sharran before that messed up and this is her punishment. But regardless, she is not a real Sharran Priest, she just thinks she is.

I just noticed that she is actually similiar to Lae'zel in that regard - both spouse propaganda and are blind to the true nature of what they endorse. Which is probably the angle to redeem them (harsh reality shock) and also to corrupt them (ease them into the reality).
Lae'zel fits better in her respecitve propaganda line, while Shadowheart rather obviously does not.

Shadowheart is really not a bad person at all, and definitely should not be judged based on speculations of potential past crimes...which we don't even know if they happened or to what extent, and much less so if she was under the influence of mind control, which would make her fully innocent. Really I would be surprised if her plot doesn't lead to memory restoration and redemption...assuming you want to redeem her. Which I suspect redeeming her would change her subclass due to the nature of shadow magic and how it works, or doesn't to be more precise, if you are not loyal to Shar.

I'll personally take Shadowheart down a darker path but to treat her as evil from the start of the game is just wrong.

I fully agree, aside from the last point. Talking about this topic makes me want to redeem her *now*.

But yeah, there is a massive hint that she can be redeemed. Actually, she acts many times more like a Selunite than a Sharran. And what she "know" about Selune is just outright wrong. The brainwashing I mentioned did not even bother overly with implanting Shars dogma into her aside from some bullet points. It really is just "Shar is good, Selune is evil and don't think about this too hard".

Like I said earlier, she was just brainwashed for a suicide mission, not for continued service to Shar. But if she goes down a dark path, Shar just rolls with it and allows Tav to turn her into a Sharran. Or the weird voice in her head if you play her as an Origin, I guess.

its common to ask Shar to help you get Revenge

I've been theorycrafting about six parties (of which I'll probably initially play 3 at most, considering how long the game is) but somehow I just don't ever seem to find a good spot for Wyll.

That's partly Minsc and Jaheira's fault because I really want to see them interact with some of the other fan favourites, but Wyll... he's a really really nice guy, he doesn't subtly get under your skin like Gale does, or literally suck your blood like Asterion. Despite having a demon tagging along he whispers to I'm afraid he'll just be super friendly with everyone and it will be pretty borning. I know it's unfair to gauge such things from the EA.

If it turns out they are only 5th tag-along companions after all it will be both bad and good, because I''ll have to rework everything.

Just to have another way to discuss companions, here are my first impressions that will affect any considerations about whether or not to keep them:

Lae'zel:
Considers me a lesser being and servant - so probably expendable. I hate this, but she's too useful to dismiss so I'll keep her around. She hasn't actually done anything but better not follow any plans made by her. We'll see.

Shadowheart:
Hmm..mysterious. And interesting. Doesn't come across as a typical Sharran but what do I know of them? Overall not particularly impressive but personally actually quite nice, as opposed to most of the others. I wonder how she looks if she unbraids that impressive hair.

Gale:
I can't put my finger on it, but I don't trust this guy. And the way he made advances in camp was outright creepy. We knew each other for....one day? Thankfully I'm a sorcerer so I don't need to bring him along on my expeditions. Also, he managed to offend the goddess of magic so hard that she cut him off from the weave? Heh, I know a ton of obnoxious wizards, what must you do you merit that? Well, we're all together in the same problem, so I'll keep him around. We'll see.

Astarion:
Arrogant asshole, but most of it is just talk and I can't really blame him for anything specific except that, well, feeding attempt. And he promised not to do it again. Nonetheless, vampire spawn, one wonders if he's capable of keeping that promise. Better be careful around him but for now, too useful to dismiss. We'll see.

Wyll.
Another arrogant asshole. Great. It's also mostly just talk and he's not a vampire, so probably more trustworthy, but I don't like him. Maybe he'll get more bearable once he's free of that contract. We'll see.

Karlach:
Someone normal at last. Heh, did I really think that about a tiefling with a magical heart replacement? In any case, whatever else she is, that's one I'd trust at my side in a fight.

So, what are everyone else's impressions? In free, unsystematic terms?

Gale literally betrayed the goddess of magic...in terms of the most likely to try to betray you and kill I'll put him at the top of the list.

Oh, nice Idea. Here are my opinions:

Lae'zel:
She is dismissive and bossy, but feels competent enough. I do not trust her unwavering patriotism, but as long as our goals (mostly) align, I would keep her. I will definitely keep my eye on her and keep an (emotional) distance, since if she would ever be forced to chose between us and Vlaakith she would probably chose the latter.


Shadowheart:
She is a nice, if snarky, person who prefers her privacy but seems to have her heart at the right place. Also somehow lacks of knowledge of Shars (and Selunes) Dogma. This massive clash makes her very interesting. Looking forward to unravel her mysteries!


Gale:
I do not like him. At all. He is condescending, thinks he knows best and has delusions of grandeur. Or in other words, a Wizard. A class often characterized by their jealousy of people with natural talent (Sorcerers) and people who picked better teachers then them (Warlocks).
He acts like a stereotypical snobby Wizard and is not nearly as suave, charming or even smart as he thinks he is.


Astarion:
A snob and an abomination.While it is hard for me to keep my latent racism towards undead in check, I do think he is actually an interesting character. While undoubtedly a selfish sociopath, he feels like he has a reason to act like that. This, together with his newfound ability to walk in the sun makes me think there might be a possibility to redeem and resurrect him if you can help him grow.
..I will still kill him in most runs when he tries to drink my blood, see racism towards undead.


Wyll:
He feels like a young man who hides insecurity behind showmanship. But he also makes it very clear that he is, mostly, a good person in a bad spot. He Patron feels less like a distant power source and teacher and more like a *very* abusive partner. His worst moment in EA (the torture) shows that there is a hidden darkness that this partnership brings out - but also that a good friend can turn him into the shining hero he so desperately wants to be. Not sure about the result of the rewrite, of course.


Karlach:
...Sorry, to distracted ogling her...
Seriously though, she seems to be a nice, if temperamental, person. Strong, good-hearted, willing to help the weak. Also a bit of a romantic!
Basically, everything that is shown to us makes her the perfect l... companion.

IIRC, he did not go into detail about what exactly happened, so....

...did I miss a conversation or conversation option?
...is this non-EA knowledge?
...is this your interpretation?