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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2017
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Jesus people complaing about the game having too many mythical stuff, have you seen the crazy shit you do in WOTR!??????
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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Jesus people complaing about the game having too many mythical stuff, have you seen the crazy shit you do in WOTR!?????? I can't even take some of the complaints seriously. It's constant throughout multiple threads, as if any excuse stands as a reason to swoop in and make some snide comment about Larian. Feels more like the bitterness of a jilted lover than actual feedback.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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This is where you're mistaken. We just want the game to be better. It's not complaining. It's constructive feedback.
I wouldn't 2ven be out here if I didn't love this game. I wouldn't say anything or post anything if what I posted was just complaining.
So, when I suggest that they make monsters with proper D and D stats, it's because I think it would make the game better. People who don't know D&D don't know what they're missing because they don't get to truly experience what D&D is really like because SO many things are homebrewed and genuine D&D is lost.
Example: Rogues. My gosh! The rogue is so stripped of their genuine abilities. It's like, what's the point of being a rogue at all?
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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This is where you're mistaken. We just want the game to be better. It's not complaining. It's constructive feedback. I'm not talking about you. I might not agree with all of your ideas, but I accept that you love this game as much as I do. ETA: now go look at the Lenore thread! I'm curious what you think about my suggestion there.
Last edited by JandK; 28/11/21 12:45 AM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Dec 2020
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I'm not sure there is such a big difference.
While exploring, companions in BG3 talk to each other very often, unlike WotR.
It's hard for me to consider saying literally one sentence as a conversation, as is the case in WotR, especially since many of these "conversations" are written so that they could fit more than one person.
What WotR does better is that the companions join the conversation. Only here are two things to consider.
First of all, considering the whole game is a bit unfair.
We only have less than 1/3 of the game.
Secondly, full voice acting is quite expensive so of course there will also be a more limited number of combinations.
It would be nice if companions joined conversations more often (it's much better than it was at the beginning of EA), but you shouldn't have unrealistic expectations. It's not comparable. I participated in WotR alpha and beta too. If the current state of BG3 is 1/3rd of the game, then WotR up to the end of chapter 2 is basically 1/3rd of the game there as well. By the time you get to the end of chapter 2 of WotR, you already have a very clear idea on how most of the party members feel about each other, and they've all interjected in conversations numerous times. BG3's companions can talk while exploring, but I can't recall a single one that didn't go beyond mildly generic quip about where they're from or what they do, nor do I really learn anything meaningful about the characters involved. With one exception, the heavily scripted one near the ruined town involving Wyll contacting Mizora. WotR's equivalent of exploratory banter would probably be the campfire convos, a good chunk of them being voiced. I think the point I'm trying to make here is that the primary difference is that most of WotR's companion convos lean greatly into their personalities, sometimes showing a level of thoughtfulness towards each other, instead of somehow looping back to their personal plots or backstories. Because you should already know enough about the latter from meeting them, talking to them privately, or from their personal quests. A couple examples. Regill and Greybor: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder..._would_you_call_a_bromance_but_based_on/Nenio and Seelah: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/q6fggc/thanks_nenio_very_nice/Camellia and Ember: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/qzfmdw/camellias_kinda_right_here/Daeran and Regill: https://old.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_Kingmaker/comments/qbwqlx/daeran_is_just_so_thoughtful/Stuff like this is a subtle way of livening up not only each other's personalities, but the setting they're a part of. While BG3's companions still feel rather self-contained. There's really no reason to believe that BG3's companions can't reach that level of interactivity or complexity. Maybe you're right that this is an unrealistic expectation. Doesn't mean that there still isn't work to do in this department, especially considering we only have 5 companions right now. Looping back to what I said about DOS2 before, there was a huge amount of missed opportunities with the companion cast in that game. Sebille and the Red Prince had brief animosity towards each other at Fort Joy, but it gets immediately dropped and never brought up again after the first step of their personal quests. One would think Red Prince would have something to say upon Sebille remembering that she's basically next in line to become queen of the Elves and royalty just like the Red Prince is. But nope. Ifan doesn't seem to react to this revelation either, despite half of his personal quest dealing with his immense guilt with near genociding the Elves by indirectly gassing their homeland with deathfog long ago. And that's just the things I can think of as it directly relates to their personal arcs. I really think that BG3's cast is capable of so much more. Quite frankly, going all in on the banter would be the best way to dispel the commonly held notion that they're all rather one-note, in their depth largely consisting of their shrouds of mystery and not much else.
Last edited by Saito Hikari; 28/11/21 05:18 AM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2020
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Jesus people complaing about the game having too many mythical stuff, have you seen the crazy shit you do in WOTR!?????? I can't even take some of the complaints seriously. It's constant throughout multiple threads, as if any excuse stands as a reason to swoop in and make some snide comment about Larian. Feels more like the bitterness of a jilted lover than actual feedback. The problem is not 'mythical stuff', the problem is that we are inundated with 'mythical stuff' from the very outset. There is no logical progression. You can't take the complaints seriously? Why not, is it so hard to imagine that some people have a different opinion to yours? That these people desperately want the game be better and more resemble its illustrious and much beloved predecessors? Gushing hyperbole about this game to Larian is going to achieve precisely nothing, it's constructive critical feedback that does that.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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Jesus people complaing about the game having too many mythical stuff, have you seen the crazy shit you do in WOTR!?????? No? But I keep Baldur's Gate3 to early Bioware standards, not Owlcat standards. That said Kingmaker was the worst campaign I played since Neverwinter Nights1, which was also a Bioware game, so maybe I am a bit disingenuous here.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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You guys make me never want to play DOS. Sometimes I consider it, but then I read something like this.
Sigh. Honestly, it's still a game you should play. If only because it'd give you a window into understanding why there's immense pushback in seeing anything remotely similar to DOS2 in BG3. Many fail to understand that the whole 'BG3 = DOS3' criticism isn't mean to disparage the DOS games, it's a warning to Larian that they shouldn't expect to blindly take aspects of their own series and insert it into a DnD-focused world and engine and expect it to go over well. Especially since some of the things that obviously did make it over are also the most harshly criticized parts of DOS to begin with (the toilet chain system for instance, the idea of the origin system, and the fears that we'll end up with all of our inactive party members dead at the end of act 1 like what happened in DOS2, though it looks more and more like Larian has reversed course on the latter since none of the datamining is showing any hint that it is even on the table anymore). Beyond that, it's still a great game for what it is, even if the balancing becomes questionable about halfway into the game. I actually like the DOS2 party members. My issue with them is that there's literally no party banter between them at all (you will not see party members talking to each other at all, they only really talk to the designated player character. They will only comment as a group and tell you what they would personally do before you make a major choice). Because of their overall lack of interaction between each other, it's a contributing factor as to why they mostly come off as selfish murderhobos as the game goes on, as they don't really get much opportunity to showcase any sort of depth. BG3 isn't quite that much better yet, but my standards in this department are also admittedly very high, almost unrealistically so, with how lively WotR's cast of party members are. At face value, WotR's characters aren't that much different from Larian's characters, the primary difference is their party banter gives them numerous opportunities to show true depth. It's probably the only game I've ever played where one can make a convincing argument that the entire cast of party members should be judged as a complete package, instead of on an individual level. I'm not sure there is such a big difference. While exploring, companions in BG3 talk to each other very often, unlike WotR. It's hard for me to consider saying literally one sentence as a conversation, as is the case in WotR, especially since many of these "conversations" are written so that they could fit more than one person. What WotR does better is that the companions join the conversation. Only here are two things to consider. First of all, considering the whole game is a bit unfair. We only have less than 1/3 of the game. Secondly, full voice acting is quite expensive so of course there will also be a more limited number of combinations. It would be nice if companions joined conversations more often (it's much better than it was at the beginning of EA), but you shouldn't have unrealistic expectations. For me, there's an issue that both the BG3 "wayside" banter and the Kingmaker/WotR "campside" banter share: it's between party members only. It doesn't feel like it involves my character at all, it's over my head. BG3 goes a step further and doesn't even involve you or your actions/choices at all, meaning it contributes to the feeling that Tav doesn't actually exist or matter. I'm a bigger fan of reactions during dialogue, to me they come of as being more including, even if they technically could be reduced to still just being between two party NPCs if you pick them apart. WotR has more of those, but they're not exactly absent from BG3 either, there's for example Gale introducing himself to Shadowheart at the beginning and SH and Laessie often interjects to bicker with each other. They just feel less characterisating than WotR's ones. When it comes to companion banter and such the game I'd hold up as an example to follow would be DA:O. It has a very strong mix of both "interjection" and "wayside" banter, the latter which will be partly shaped by your choices and sometimes be them talking about your character too. I think it would be interesting to see more PC-NPC-NPC dialogues though. Something to make you feel more like a group and like your own character has a presence.
Optimistically Apocalyptic
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veteran
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Joined: Sep 2020
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For me, there's an issue that both the BG3 "wayside" banter and the Kingmaker/WotR "campside" banter share: it's between party members only. It doesn't feel like it involves my character at all, it's over my head. BG3 goes a step further and doesn't even involve you or your actions/choices at all, meaning it contributes to the feeling that Tav doesn't actually exist or matter. [...]
When it comes to companion banter and such the game I'd hold up as an example to follow would be DA:O. It has a very strong mix of both "interjection" and "wayside" banter, the latter which will be partly shaped by your choices and sometimes be them talking about your character too.
I think it would be interesting to see more PC-NPC-NPC dialogues though. Something to make you feel more like a group and like your own character has a presence. +1 to all of this. More party interactions, with the PC + multiple NPCs, would go a long way toward making BG3 feel like a Group of Adventurers.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
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(Warning, many spoilers ahead)
I'm just an old guy who started D&D in 2nd edition 30 years ago. I enjoyed Forgotten Realms and the classic "gathering my party to venture forth" from a tavern where we received a quest to go find some treasure. Usually an elf was the most exotic or strange party member who would garner attention from local villagers or farmers as they had never actually seen one in person before. If there were any Tiefling or Drow with us they would surely have worn a disguise to avoid drawing too much attention to themselves. Slaying an ogre or band of orcs was quite the accomplishment for a group of eager level 2 adventurers, enough to earn a reward from the local mayor and a reputation in the area. Finding a cache of magical items was quite rare and scrolls or potions were valuable assets to be used carefully. Eventually something would happen to thrust the party into the seat of danger and a plot would unfold which would lead to intrigue, greatness and powerful enemies. Back then, like in the original Baldur's Gate 1, our story began similarly to Gorion's Ward, a novice set off into the unknown on an adventure with their childhood companion Imoen. Can you imagine how boring characters like Imoen, Jaheira or Khalid would seem compared to those in "Baldur's Gate 3"?
In contrast, BG3 feels like some Michael Bay, Guardians of the Galaxy fever dream with flying ships and planar races being the new normal, throwing away the entire vibe set by the first 2 games. BG3 has the player fighting Beholders in the Underdark as early as level 2-3! It feels like someone who only just heard of Forgotten Realms wanted to take all the most over the top content and cram it all into the first chapter. By the time our characters set foot in a normal town or village (which currently doesn't even exist in Early Access) they will likely be in the double digit levels and have an entire troupe traveling in their camp. A camp which may consist (thus far) of a Lich, owlbear cub, The legendary Volo, a vampire, a gith, a druid, several magical humans and a dog. It makes deciding whether to spend extra gold for a nice room at the Friendly Arm Inn seem like an entirely different setting.
All of this leads to nothing in the current game feeling special or particularly noteworthy. I can understand your point. I'm playing DDO - and I *love* it because of its Ebberron setting ! But it also has a few trips into the Forgotten Realms available - and, indeeed, the tne there is much different. The Forgotten Realms are vast, though, and I have learned that travel through theplanes is in principle possible, so I'm not that much surprised. However, I fear that younger player generations are just trained towards a particular play style with modern games, and that this might come through in games like a watermark. Modern games have mostly emphasis on 1 thing : On excitement and thus on adrenaline. If you look at which games sell most, you can clearly see what's common these days. And, besides, I see no difference in the look between a beholder and a spectator.
Last edited by AlrikFassbauer; 16/12/21 11:15 AM.
When you find a big kettle of crazy, it's best not to stir it.
--Dilbert cartoon
"Interplay.some zombiefied unlife thing going on there" - skavenhorde at RPGWatch
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addict
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addict
Joined: Mar 2013
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i'm late to the club. +1 to original poster. can't said it better myself
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2021
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(Warning, many spoilers ahead)
The entire premise of BG3 in this regard is absurd. Githyanki and Tieflings are more common than Humans or Elves in the current game. I was genuinely surprised when the player meets Mayrina's brothers in the swamp, who are two of the only non-magical, normal humans in the entire game thus far. This does not parallel BG1 & 2, both of which were centric around fairly mundane cities and towns. BG1 straight up went with the initial setting being a very quiet human castle/monastery of Candlekeep. BG2 got a little more exotic with the metropolitan city of Amn where magic was powerful just beneath the surface but it was still mostly grounded in traditional medieval fantasy. Part of the charm of Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 was interacting with townsfolk and playing the typical medieval hero (or villain). Hearing quips like "You tell 'em Marl" from drunken country bumpkins or deciding the quality of room you could afford at the local inn, created a backdrop of a living, believable and relatable world amidst the fantastic magical elements. Somehow BG3 seems more on par with the setting of Planescape or Throne of Bhaal which we didn't reach until level 18-20.
My character in BG3 has more potions, scrolls and magical items then I know what to do with. All of my party's gear slots are enchanted. Half the battles can be won by shoving the enemy off a cliff. Burning, acid or wet surfaces are such an important combat feature while game mechanics like alignment or reputation are ignored. Gone are character portraits. Gone are AI packages, formations, and 6 member parties. I played Divinity Original Sin 1 and 2 and enjoyed both but neither felt like Forgotten Realms, neither felt like D&D... This is, something else. Divinity Original Sin 3 maybe. Baldur's Gate 3, definitely not. I love BG3, but you make a good point, and I have heard friends make the exact same criticism. The game doesn't start from a particularly grounded perspective and it throws you into an extreme and rather obscure end of the D&D mythos despite you being level 1. Its difficult to reconcile that with how Bg1 starts with you fleeing your home of Candlekeep under mysterious circumstances and then you have a more or less open world to explore. Does that make it not a Baldur's Gate game? I don't think so, but this is a subjective thing. And anyway, the platform is the main thing that matters to me - it is my hope that other people will write adventures that have a more grounded jumping off point in the traditional style that can be played multiplayer with friends.
Blackheifer
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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Ok, I made an account on here just to vent my frustration. I think I heard about BG3 coming out in late 2022 - I was super extremely excited. I am pushing 40 and do not have the time or interest to play many games these days
anymore but having spent most of my teenage years / early 20s GMing various D&D plus having absolutely LOVED BG1 (especially) and 2 ( to a lesser extent)... Color me excited.
Fast forward to last week I buy the early access, thinking I would just dabble around in Act 1 til August 3rd.... I am ready to stop playing after about 4 hours and uninstall.
Mindflayers ? The rogue dude seems to be a vampire ? They sent a bunch of level 3 characters to rescue some arch druid from a bunch of goblins (how did that happen exactly ? And what is my party supposed to do
that the arch druid could not himself ??? )I see a fricking red dragon through the telescope on top of the Druids Cave ?????
What exactly would have been wrong with taking the (granted, completely absurd and way over the top) prologue but then turning it into a "normal" BG game ? The mindlayer ship crashes on the beach, you get blown out, you look for other survivors.... And then I would much rather fight 2-3 goblins, or maybe some giant spider, an orc, a wolf .... Is this really what "the casuals" want ? Red dragons, mind flayers, flesh golems and so on ?
I thought this would be the game of the year for me. I am honestly very sad to see they turned it into this clown fiesta.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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Hi.
I'm pushing beyond forty, but I do have that time. Other than that, my introduction is roughly the same.
Yeah, it's all a bit much.
But I love it anyway.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
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Jhe'stil Kith'rak
Joined: Oct 2021
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Ok, I made an account on here just to vent my frustration. I think I heard about BG3 coming out in late 2022 - I was super extremely excited. I am pushing 40 and do not have the time or interest to play many games these days
anymore but having spent most of my teenage years / early 20s GMing various D&D plus having absolutely LOVED BG1 (especially) and 2 ( to a lesser extent)... Color me excited.
Fast forward to last week I buy the early access, thinking I would just dabble around in Act 1 til August 3rd.... I am ready to stop playing after about 4 hours and uninstall.
Mindflayers ? The rogue dude seems to be a vampire ? They sent a bunch of level 3 characters to rescue some arch druid from a bunch of goblins (how did that happen exactly ? And what is my party supposed to do
that the arch druid could not himself ??? )I see a fricking red dragon through the telescope on top of the Druids Cave ?????
What exactly would have been wrong with taking the (granted, completely absurd and way over the top) prologue but then turning it into a "normal" BG game ? The mindlayer ship crashes on the beach, you get blown out, you look for other survivors.... And then I would much rather fight 2-3 goblins, or maybe some giant spider, an orc, a wolf .... Is this really what "the casuals" want ? Red dragons, mind flayers, flesh golems and so on ?
I thought this would be the game of the year for me. I am honestly very sad to see they turned it into this clown fiesta. You don’t fight the mind flayer or the red dragon. The Archdruid was overwhelmed by an entire fortress worth of goblins, ogres, hobgoblins, bugbears, and drow. You don’t fight them all at once; you either talk or sneak your way in and do it one by one intelligently. Like maybe going after their leaders. Or freeing the Druid to help you. Maybe play the game to find out how you do what he could not.
Remember the human (This is a forum for a video game):
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2023
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I see a fricking red dragon through the telescope on top of the Druids Cave ????? That particular thing is called "foreshadowing." I thought this would be the game of the year for me. I am honestly very sad to see they turned it into this clown fiesta. I guess this is the "constructive criticism" another poster mentioned above. To reply to the title of the thread, what exactly is a "Baldur's Gate game?" Does it have to have Gorion's Ward in it or something?
Last edited by branmakmuffin; 31/07/23 09:24 PM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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"a bit much " ? What is supposed to happen in acts 2-4 ? Do we fight actual gods in the last act, having left behind measly mindflayers, dragons, beholders and so on ?
What would be wrong with a bit of an excitement curve ? Why not slowly ease us into it ?
I know nothing I type on here will change anything about the game, they already have my money and if there are people who enjoy BG3 - good for them.
I can only repeat how disappointed I am.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2023
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"a bit much " ? What is supposed to happen in acts 2-4 ? Do we fight actual gods in the last act, having left behind measly mindflayers, dragons, beholders and so on ?
What would be wrong with a bit of an excitement curve ? Why not slowly ease us into it ? Sure, "escaping from mind flayers" is a bit over the top in terms of how to start a campaign, and not something I would do in a PnP game, but after that, we do "slowly ease into it."
Last edited by branmakmuffin; 31/07/23 09:28 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think you're missing something here. Yes, you *see* mindflayers, dragons etc; but you're not fighting them. You're fighting goblins and spiders and so.
Fear my wrath, for it is great indeed.
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member
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member
Joined: Jul 2023
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I thought this would be the game of the year for me. I am honestly very sad to see they turned it into this clown fiesta. Yes. Really happy with how it turned out 
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