|
|
|
enthusiast
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2017
|
Having a cleric 11/wizard 1 being able to cast 6th level wizard spells is all sorts of wrong. It gives multiple class characters broken power and cheats single class characters. It's all but cheats the system. Choice is about consequence. The less consequence the easier the choice to the point thete is no choice.
"And, no, dont do it." is a cop out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2022
|
You do know that in 5e you can get meta magic, with that feat...
As for heavy armour, that actually require you to put some points in strength, or you will be encumbered more or less all the time, i asume you place a 8 in str, meaning you can carry five times that or be encumbered... and a plate armour weighs 65 ?, wich would put you very close to be heavy encumbered... this is offcourse 5e rules, but unless you ignore these rules, having a permanent -10 or -20 move isnt exactly ideal... when you can just use a spell to have more or less "armour", and be silent...
Im not saying its nice and gives you edges, but when you actually break down the rules, you can ultimatly get it most it being a pure wizard, since there is feats and subclasses that gives you access to most things and at level 17, a pure wizard / sorc have access to all spells regardless with wish, ((and so does a cleric with the use of miracle))...
Wish
((The basic use of this spell is to duplicate any other spell of 8th level or lower. You don’t need to meet any requirements in that spell, including costly components. The spell simply takes effect.))
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
im gussing we will be able to make alot of potions and elexiers through alchemy... from the glimpses we have it seem to give access to alot of really power full heal, restorative and effects... just a handy potion of speak with animals, would open up alot of dialogue I'm not sure if you played EA, but there are potions of speak with animals all over the place. So much so, that I wouldn't ever waste a spell slot on it. If certain wikis are to be believed potion crafting will be robust enough that you wont need to worry about most things. I mean just in EA alone, you can get items with many of the important utility spells. Including speak with the dead, guidance, create water, detect thoughts, and several others. All the cocern about optimization tricks is based on table top balance. BG3 is not balanced like TT, it is balanced like Evel Knievel driving a monster truck over a snowy volcano. Getting sweaty about it isn't worth your time and energy.
Back from timeout.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2022
|
Yea, i agree with you, thats my point... people get all grouchy couse some might have access to a billion spells, but that wont matter, as hat matter is the spell slots... and as you bring up there is so many ways to get access to heals, restoraitves, resitances, or other spell effects with potions... its more or less free spell slots ;P
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
|
What feat gives a wizard meta magic? Will that feat be available in BG3 to your knowledge?
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
Yea, i agree with you, thats my point... people get all grouchy couse some might have access to a billion spells, but that wont matter, as hat matter is the spell slots... and as you bring up there is so many ways to get access to heals, restoraitves, resitances, or other spell effects with potions... its more or less free spell slots ;P Sorry. Only the first part of the response was to you regarding the potions being everywhere. The rest of it was meant for the people in the thread freaking out about even the possibility you may have access to more spells than they think is balanced.
Back from timeout.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Oct 2020
|
What feat gives a wizard meta magic? Will that feat be available in BG3 to your knowledge? It's called Metamagic Adept, but it was from Tasha's not the PHB, so it probably won't be in BG3.
Back from timeout.
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2017
|
I cannot believe they thought it would be ok to go Wizard+Cleric+Sorcerer+Bard multiclass and still cast full caster spells in 4 class, there's got to be a catch.
Last edited by Claim; 01/08/23 09:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
|
I cannot believe they thought it would be ok to go Wizard+Cleric+Sorcerer+Bard multiclass and still cast full caster spells in 4 class, there's got to be a catch. Yeah, I'm with this stranger. There's gotta be more to it, right?
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2018
|
I cannot believe they thought it would be ok to go Wizard+Cleric+Sorcerer+Bard multiclass and still cast full caster spells in 4 class, there's got to be a catch. INT, CHA and WIS can’t all be 20. Yeah, you get some other spells, but in expense for being able to cast them well. You could just choose spells that don’t require a spell attack or save, but doing this is kind of pointless when you could just make a few different characters to cover these roles rather than one nerfed character. I’m with Aurora. I am not convinced this will be as broken as many are worried it will be. But we will see.
Last edited by Warlocke; 01/08/23 09:12 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
member
|
|
member
Joined: Jul 2023
|
I cannot believe they thought it would be ok to go Wizard+Cleric+Sorcerer+Bard multiclass and still cast full caster spells in 4 class, there's got to be a catch. Yeah, I'm with this stranger. There's gotta be more to it, right? It's called still being limited by concentration, the limited number of spell slots, the limited action economy, and the fact you're not going to get all of those stats to 20.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2022
|
Its more a versatility thing, sure its a nice bonus to have more tools, but as iwe and other stated... having five fireball spells, doesnt really make you better... and then its also needing several stats, and you can have a billion buff spells, but you can still only concentrate on one... and then there is the action economy...
Also, while heavy armour is tempting, in order to use it you need to place points in strength or you will more or less allways be encumbered... even medium armours can get heavy with 8 strength...
So yes casters get nice stuff when they multiclass, but non-casters is where you can make the really stronk builds, if you know how to min max the system... but again, that is my take on it... IF you got more spell slots, yes then it be far to goo, but its alittle of a trap, couse if you cast a heal, its one less fireball or counterspell... its better to have a a few casters, as that gives you more buff spells...
There is one thing im curious to check out and that is sorcerers twinned spell, as that is the only way in PnP you can cast two concentration spells with one cast... not sure how Larian wil handle that
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
|
I cannot believe they thought it would be ok to go Wizard+Cleric+Sorcerer+Bard multiclass and still cast full caster spells in 4 class, there's got to be a catch. Yeah, I'm with this stranger. There's gotta be more to it, right? It's called still being limited by concentration, the limited number of spell slots, the limited action economy, and the fact you're not going to get all of those stats to 20. To be fair, only one of the qualifications you listed isn't heavily mitigated by something in the game. - # of spell slots isn't necessarily a concern because you can long rest every fight or two*. - One of Larian's early goals with BG3 was to expand the action economy to make earlier levels more fun (for martials particularly, which is a fair criticism of 5e). BG3 casters have numerous ways to get additional actions for leveled spells, both of the regular and bonus variety. - It's not infeasible to get three stats to 18, possibly higher, through a combination of dump stats and magic items that set certain ability scores to X**. I haven't seen any mention of a concentration-bypassing item in BG3. *Depending on how Larian balances the prevalence of food supplies, and how many dungeon-y areas prevent long resting. **Depending on the exact prevalence and slot requirements of the stat-setting magic items.
|
|
|
|
|
|
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Sep 2022
|
If I put my DM houseruling hat on I'd do something like this:
Wiz3/Cle2
Standard multiclassing rules for slots available 4/3/2
Because highest slot is 3 and highest spell known of 2 is less than 3, character gets a bonus highest level wizard spell known of 2+1=3 and cleric of 1+1=2.
So Wiz3/Cle2 still gets 4/3/2 slots,
but knows 11 wizard spells (8 must be level 1, 2 can be level 2, 1 can be level 3), and all level 1 cleric spells plus one level 2.
Would this outshine a Wiz5? Maybe.
The multiclass gets more dialogue options, more cantrips, some weapon/armour proficiencies, better HPs. The Wiz5 gets more level 2 and 3 spells known, better arcane recovery, an ASI, and only needs high Int.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
|
Its not a big deal, as long as you have the same number of spell slots... the cleric 11/wizard1 example is just a little better theurg, but its just marginally... the limiting factor is still spell slots, doesnt matter that you have a billion variations of spells, your still limited to how many you can cast... and it dosent make much of a diffrence heal wise or damage wise... as a level 1 cure wounds spell is dependent on character level, so even in pnp 5e that 11wizard / 1 cleric would get be able to cast more powerfull heals...
Secondly clerics by themself have plenty of spells that is more or less a "fireball", and in manycases they can have fire ball by taking the right domains...so as stated a 11cleric / 1wizard in larian can cast a fireball, so can a level 12 cleric of light domain... and even if they dont they have spells that more or less do the same, pillar of flame, blade barrier etc so fourth...
Sure it is nice and fun to have the flexibility of a Teurgh, but its far from as powefull as some think, since as stated, you wunt get more spell slots... and thats it at the core, there is far more powerfull multiclasses as they actually do get more attacks, more damage, etc...
The irony is, the 11Cleric / 1 wizard, loose out on one feat... and they have two main caster stats Int and Wiz... It's not about power as much as it is about flavor and class identity. If Clerics start dipping Wizard for Shield, Mirror Image and Fireball, Light Clerics lose their unique abilities almost as much as Wizards and Sorcerers. It's a step towards a classless system where you just mix and match abilities as you please. A system that Larian prefers for their own ip. A system that doesn't feel like anything.
Last edited by 1varangian; 01/08/23 11:20 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2022
|
i can agree to that, but it can already be done with other means... clerics can have mirror image, and druids can get alot of wizard spells as well... dipping into other classes spells is already possible... how much it is done, is ultimatly limited by spell slots and action economy and no matter the number of buff spells, you can only have one concentration spell...
So tell me if you think its such a bad idea, for identity, should warriors be barred from dippin g into rogue to get sneak attack ?... most non caster classes dip into other non casters becouse they gain extra attacks and some really really good features, not only is it idendity breaking it is also really really damn good...
But if caster get some meme versatility, then its ruin and doom... again, your arguing wich cricle is more round then the other circle...
|
|
|
|
|
|
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Oct 2017
|
I think versatility in a somewhat strategic puzzle shouldnt be undervalued.
I am not good at min maxing and didn't really tried but being a :
Bard of sword level 6 for extra attack,
Sorcerer 3 for fireballs metamagic things
Warlock 3 for the Sword charisma scaling thing
While still having access to max level spells of each class seems a bit like it can do more than a specialist without doing it worst.
I don't really mind since the game is not competitive multiplayer but the meta sure seems bent towards multicalssing in that case and not doing it seems like choosing to be weaker for roleplay reasons.
That said I am confident Larian will have ease the limit without entirely removing it, probably as some of you stated with customs rules.
Last edited by Claim; 01/08/23 11:34 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
|
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2022
|
you also loose two feats...
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
|
If we are OK with mixing arcane and divine spellcasters into a super versatile multiclass that doesnt take a hit in max level spells, why not also let Fighters and Barbarians dip and mix for more fun?
Let them have Battlemaster maneuvers, Action Surge, Rage and increased movement without postponing their Extra Attacks. After all it's much more fun when your character has more abilities. Sprinkle in some Ranger spells too but make sure they still get Extra Attacks at 5 and 11. Just keep adding more fun into multiclassing until the classes don't mean anything except some skill templates.
|
|
|
|
|
|
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2018
|
If we are OK with mixing arcane and divine spellcasters into a super versatile multiclass that doesnt take a hit in max level spells, why not also let Fighters and Barbarians dip and mix for more fun?
Let them have Battlemaster maneuvers, Action Surge, Rage and increased movement without postponing their Extra Attacks. After all it's much more fun when your character has more abilities. Sprinkle in some Ranger spells too but make sure they still get Extra Attacks at 5 and 11. Just keep adding more fun into multiclassing until the classes don't mean anything except some skill templates. That’s a little different. Spell casters don’t have access to all of their spells all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
