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Sounds right, illithids are LE.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by SeaCat
I understand people are shocked by the twist in the plot as to who the Emporer actually is. Many players customized their own Dream Guardian to be an version of an attractive character for their plot and fell for it, only to be shocked and horrified at the truth (which was the point). To me, that is great storytelling. It hit the players in a 4th wall way, and is masterfully written manipulation. That said, I hope that the player push pushback from their reactions to the skillful plot twist and misdirection manipulation does not make Larian shy away from the Emporer. The outrage and revolted reactions are a sign of a well-done twist.

I also feel like the whole 'Daisy' bit was a fake cover to avoid spoilers for such a huge plot point. Something to keep players off the trail of what the game designers had in store.

There are countless damsels in distress stories, pretty faces looking for love, himbos, and bad boys/girls among the countless games out there. Baldur's Gate 3 currently has many great options to sate the desires who desire something more...mortal. The Emperor however is something utterly else, and its a bold step in writing that I want to see more of when it comes to romance writing.

Daisy was not a red herring, they even put her in the artbook.
No, Larian dumbed down the story at the last minute, making it worse, by replacing Daisy with the emperor so that there are no long term consequences.


Putting Daisy in the art book is easy, the Emporer is in the book as well. All she was was a representation of the mindflayer tadpole in your head. She was trying to get you to stay with her to surrender yourself to it and become an illithid.

So......people are prolly going to be even more mad when they find out Daisy if it was a serious actual plot, was just the tadpol trying to manipulate you.

That seems like a quick and easy cheap way to creat a red herring cover for the real story to avoid spoilers.

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Originally Posted by SeaCat
Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by SeaCat
I understand people are shocked by the twist in the plot as to who the Emporer actually is. Many players customized their own Dream Guardian to be an version of an attractive character for their plot and fell for it, only to be shocked and horrified at the truth (which was the point). To me, that is great storytelling. It hit the players in a 4th wall way, and is masterfully written manipulation. That said, I hope that the player push pushback from their reactions to the skillful plot twist and misdirection manipulation does not make Larian shy away from the Emporer. The outrage and revolted reactions are a sign of a well-done twist.

I also feel like the whole 'Daisy' bit was a fake cover to avoid spoilers for such a huge plot point. Something to keep players off the trail of what the game designers had in store.

There are countless damsels in distress stories, pretty faces looking for love, himbos, and bad boys/girls among the countless games out there. Baldur's Gate 3 currently has many great options to sate the desires who desire something more...mortal. The Emperor however is something utterly else, and its a bold step in writing that I want to see more of when it comes to romance writing.

Daisy was not a red herring, they even put her in the artbook.
No, Larian dumbed down the story at the last minute, making it worse, by replacing Daisy with the emperor so that there are no long term consequences.


Putting Daisy in the art book is easy, the Emporer is in the book as well. All she was was a representation of the mindflayer tadpole in your head. She was trying to get you to stay with her to surrender yourself to it and become an illithid.

So......people are prolly going to be even more mad when they find out Daisy if it was a serious actual plot, was just the tadpol trying to manipulate you.

That seems like a quick and easy cheap way to creat a red herring cover for the real story to avoid spoilers.
No, the Emperor is not in the book. And there is no point in adding something into the artbook when its not in the game.
It shows that adding in the emperor was a last minute rewrite because Larian wanted to remove all wrong choices, like trusting Daisy, from the game so people can't lock themself into a specific path -> the game got dumbed down.

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Yet there are ample game over wrong choices in the game play through that are live. No one is locked into a path. You've not done many play-throughs I take it.

Daisy is literally the mindflayer tadpole in your character's head. Grats on wanting to romance the tadpole I guess?

Anyways, Ill be back over here looking for something more developed and interesting.

Please give us more with the Emperor romance. In the mean time, I and others have to make do with various spicy fan fiction.

Last edited by SeaCat; 10/09/23 07:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by ldamzcw
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
It's just Larian being Larian, as soon as they showed the cutscene of him chilling without a shirt on, I just skipped straight to the "i want to sleep" line, and cut it very short. They just have to make things weird.

The Mind Flayer who retained the identity of a human is also a human, and deserves the right to love. He is very lonely and can maintain his Dream Guardian form during sex.

He's a mindflayer. Wither's himself tells you Illithids do not have souls. Mystra also chimes in on this during one particular ending.

He's also a pos, willing to do whatever to whomever to advance his agenda.


So? Some of us really enjoy a dark romance bad guy plot. There are many other bad guy romance plot options, this is just another of them.

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Originally Posted by SeaCat
Originally Posted by ldamzcw
Originally Posted by OneManArmy
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
It's just Larian being Larian, as soon as they showed the cutscene of him chilling without a shirt on, I just skipped straight to the "i want to sleep" line, and cut it very short. They just have to make things weird.

The Mind Flayer who retained the identity of a human is also a human, and deserves the right to love. He is very lonely and can maintain his Dream Guardian form during sex.

He's a mindflayer. Wither's himself tells you Illithids do not have souls. Mystra also chimes in on this during one particular ending.

He's also a pos, willing to do whatever to whomever to advance his agenda.


So? Some of us really enjoy a dark romance bad guy plot. There are many other bad guy romance plot options, this is just another of them.

I was mainly just touching on the fact that he's not human, or who he was before ceremorphosis.

I do think expanding on the Empreror's romance would be a poor use of resources. Development of anything that the mass majority of end users likely will never interact with seems misguided to me. Additionally, it only adds another layer on the 15 different plot roles The Empreror is trying to fulfill and another one that doesn't really make sense when considering most lore. Daisy - a manifestation of your ideal guardian (that we customize at the start of the game) seducing you as manipulation sure - A genuine romance with a dark triad chad mindflayer though just isn't really a thing with Illithids.

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Originally Posted by SeaCat
I also feel like the whole 'Daisy' bit was a fake cover to avoid spoilers for such a huge plot point. Something to keep players off the trail of what the game designers had in store.

There are countless damsels in distress stories, pretty faces looking for love, himbos, and bad boys/girls among the countless games out there. Baldur's Gate 3 currently has many great options to sate the desires who desire something more...mortal. The Emperor however is something utterly else, and its a bold step in writing that I want to see more of when it comes to romance writing.


I don't think "Daisy" was a fake cover, I think she was just an early prototype of the idea they were playing with that ended up getting changed, which is common in big projects like this.

And honestly, I don't really know why people think "Daisy" was so much better than the Emperor, narratively speaking. I much prefer the current Dream Guardian/Emperor. The cutscenes with "Daisy" were so atrociously forced and awkward in tone and decisions you were allowed to make that she was genuinely one of the worst aspects of early access.

Both Daisy and the Emperor act as a tempter/temptress trying to get you to do their bidding but Daisy just felt like the equivalent of a cardboard cutout mustache-twirling villain that you can see for what she is from a mile away. The Emperor, by contrast, is a much better manipulator.

Even when you've seen all the "good" and "bad" versions of the cutscenes involving him, its never truly 100% clear which of his actions are manipulations. Yes, you could say that him romancing your character and behaving emotionally open and vulnerable is just another manipulation on his part.

But if you basically call him a monster during the potential romance scene and
he shows you visions of mind-controlling his past "allies" in Baldur's Gate and only treating them like puppets, asking "aren't you glad I refined my methods and didn't just mind-control you also?"
there's really no way for you to know if that isn't just another manipulation to the tune of "if you want to see me as a monster then I'll let you think I'm a monster".

He is far more powerful and far more experienced in his Illithid abilities than you are, so you really never know where the manipulations end and the truth begins. That makes him far more interesting than "Daisy" was ever portrayed to be, imo. Personally I'd love to see them expand on him more, but maybe Larian also wants to keep some of that ambiguity around him and his motivations. Still, it'd be nice to have more content involving him, considering he is literally THE only "companion" on your journey that the plot absolutely cannot do without (I say this, as having done most of the game as a solo run/without party companions).

Every other ally on your journey in terms of characters you can recruit and work alongside on a deeper level are 100% optional. Yes, even Shadowheart.

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Originally Posted by Cawckiest King
Originally Posted by SeaCat
I also feel like the whole 'Daisy' bit was a fake cover to avoid spoilers for such a huge plot point. Something to keep players off the trail of what the game designers had in store.

There are countless damsels in distress stories, pretty faces looking for love, himbos, and bad boys/girls among the countless games out there. Baldur's Gate 3 currently has many great options to sate the desires who desire something more...mortal. The Emperor however is something utterly else, and its a bold step in writing that I want to see more of when it comes to romance writing.


I don't think "Daisy" was a fake cover, I think she was just an early prototype of the idea they were playing with that ended up getting changed, which is common in big projects like this.

And honestly, I don't really know why people think "Daisy" was so much better than the Emperor, narratively speaking. I much prefer the current Dream Guardian/Emperor. The cutscenes with "Daisy" were so atrociously forced and awkward in tone and decisions you were allowed to make that she was genuinely one of the worst aspects of early access.

Both Daisy and the Emperor act as a tempter/temptress trying to get you to do their bidding but Daisy just felt like the equivalent of a cardboard cutout mustache-twirling villain that you can see for what she is from a mile away. The Emperor, by contrast, is a much better manipulator.

Even when you've seen all the "good" and "bad" versions of the cutscenes involving him, its never truly 100% clear which of his actions are manipulations. Yes, you could say that him romancing your character and behaving emotionally open and vulnerable is just another manipulation on his part.

But if you basically call him a monster during the potential romance scene and
he shows you visions of mind-controlling his past "allies" in Baldur's Gate and only treating them like puppets, asking "aren't you glad I refined my methods and didn't just mind-control you also?"
there's really no way for you to know if that isn't just another manipulation to the tune of "if you want to see me as a monster then I'll let you think I'm a monster".

He is far more powerful and far more experienced in his Illithid abilities than you are, so you really never know where the manipulations end and the truth begins. That makes him far more interesting than "Daisy" was ever portrayed to be, imo. Personally I'd love to see them expand on him more, but maybe Larian also wants to keep some of that ambiguity around him and his motivations. Still, it'd be nice to have more content involving him, considering he is literally THE only "companion" on your journey that the plot absolutely cannot do without (I say this, as having done most of the game as a solo run/without party companions).

Every other ally on your journey in terms of characters you can recruit and work alongside on a deeper level are 100% optional. Yes, even Shadowheart.

Because
with Daisy there was an actual danger from the tadpole and there was a struggle going on in your head. If then also Orpheus had chimed in it would have been even more interesting.

With the Emperor the entire premise of the game "tadpole bad, get it out" gets thrown out of the window and the tadpole, despite all what the game tells you, becomes something positive and you are stupid when you do not put more of them into your brain

The Emperor represents a massiv dumbing down of the story and removal of all consequences which makes the game much, much worse.

Last edited by Ixal; 12/09/23 04:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by SeaCat
I understand people are shocked by the twist in the plot as to who the Emporer actually is. Many players customized their own Dream Guardian to be an version of an attractive character for their plot and fell for it, only to be shocked and horrified at the truth (which was the point). To me, that is great storytelling. It hit the players in a 4th wall way, and is masterfully written manipulation. That said, I hope that the player push pushback from their reactions to the skillful plot twist and misdirection manipulation does not make Larian shy away from the Emporer. The outrage and revolted reactions are a sign of a well-done twist.

I also feel like the whole 'Daisy' bit was a fake cover to avoid spoilers for such a huge plot point. Something to keep players off the trail of what the game designers had in store.

There are countless damsels in distress stories, pretty faces looking for love, himbos, and bad boys/girls among the countless games out there. Baldur's Gate 3 currently has many great options to sate the desires who desire something more...mortal. The Emperor however is something utterly else, and its a bold step in writing that I want to see more of when it comes to romance writing.

1. You seem to forget you can literally ask the guardian in the first conversation you have with them "Are you a mindflayer"? My thought process when I saw this was: "meh, that would be a really lame twist, I'll choose something else"
So the only shocking thing here is the bad writing. In fact even before I started this game I thought to myself that I hope they don't try to push a benevolent mindflayer plot.. Just.. Meh.

2. There isn't really any scene that pushes this "attractive" feature you speak of.

3. Why would you ever care about creating your guardian in subsequent playthroughs? The character you create simply does not exist. This feels like bad game design.

All in all I just feel like people who want to romance I mindflayer are strange as hell. In fact this entire thread feels way too strange for me.

Last edited by Surge90sf; 12/09/23 03:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Ixal
Originally Posted by Cawckiest King
Originally Posted by SeaCat
I also feel like the whole 'Daisy' bit was a fake cover to avoid spoilers for such a huge plot point. Something to keep players off the trail of what the game designers had in store.

There are countless damsels in distress stories, pretty faces looking for love, himbos, and bad boys/girls among the countless games out there. Baldur's Gate 3 currently has many great options to sate the desires who desire something more...mortal. The Emperor however is something utterly else, and its a bold step in writing that I want to see more of when it comes to romance writing.


I don't think "Daisy" was a fake cover, I think she was just an early prototype of the idea they were playing with that ended up getting changed, which is common in big projects like this.

And honestly, I don't really know why people think "Daisy" was so much better than the Emperor, narratively speaking. I much prefer the current Dream Guardian/Emperor. The cutscenes with "Daisy" were so atrociously forced and awkward in tone and decisions you were allowed to make that she was genuinely one of the worst aspects of early access.

Both Daisy and the Emperor act as a tempter/temptress trying to get you to do their bidding but Daisy just felt like the equivalent of a cardboard cutout mustache-twirling villain that you can see for what she is from a mile away. The Emperor, by contrast, is a much better manipulator.

Even when you've seen all the "good" and "bad" versions of the cutscenes involving him, its never truly 100% clear which of his actions are manipulations. Yes, you could say that him romancing your character and behaving emotionally open and vulnerable is just another manipulation on his part.

But if you basically call him a monster during the potential romance scene and
he shows you visions of mind-controlling his past "allies" in Baldur's Gate and only treating them like puppets, asking "aren't you glad I refined my methods and didn't just mind-control you also?"
there's really no way for you to know if that isn't just another manipulation to the tune of "if you want to see me as a monster then I'll let you think I'm a monster".

He is far more powerful and far more experienced in his Illithid abilities than you are, so you really never know where the manipulations end and the truth begins. That makes him far more interesting than "Daisy" was ever portrayed to be, imo. Personally I'd love to see them expand on him more, but maybe Larian also wants to keep some of that ambiguity around him and his motivations. Still, it'd be nice to have more content involving him, considering he is literally THE only "companion" on your journey that the plot absolutely cannot do without (I say this, as having done most of the game as a solo run/without party companions).

Every other ally on your journey in terms of characters you can recruit and work alongside on a deeper level are 100% optional. Yes, even Shadowheart.

Because
with Daisy there was an actual danger from the tadpole and there was a struggle going on in your head. If then also Orpheus had chimed in it would have been even more interesting.

With the Emperor the entire premise of the game "tadpole bad, get it out" gets thrown out of the window and the tadpole, despite all what the game tells you, becomes something positive and you are stupid when you do not put more of them into your brain

The Emperor represents a massive dumbing down of the story and removal of all consequences which makes the game much, much worse.

I mean I can understand the frustration of dumbing down/removing consequences for using/embracing the Tadpole. It does feel weirdly removed if you accept the astral-touched tadpole and end up with your character having some big, ugly black veiny spot on their face that basically nobody seems to notice how freaking weird you look or react to your illithid powers if you use them, even if I understand how much more work it would be to make reactions to that everywhere from a technical standpoint.

But "Daisy" was really not any better than the Emperor. She's a walking red flag from the moment she shows up, which really just makes anyone who doesn't have brainrot go "why in the ever living heck would I ever go along with what this very obvious, evil temptress wants me to do?".

Yes, the Dream Visitor is sus, but does a much better job of lulling you into a sense of security, narratively speaking,
while not actually intending on wanting to cure you. He's obviously fine with you becoming a mindflayer and a pawn, just not someone else's mindflayer pawn. Especially not a mindflayer pawn to a few casual mortals, instead of illithid being in charge.

"Daisy" was just a shamelessly one-dimensional "don't you want UNLIMITED POWAH? LULUL" plot device.

Last edited by Cawckiest King; 13/09/23 07:14 AM.
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Originally Posted by Surge90sf
All in all I just feel like people who want to romance I mindflayer are strange as hell. In fact this entire thread feels way too strange for me.

I mean, everyone and their mom is romancing Astarion.
It is my job to be the "I'm not like other girls" one. It is my cross to bear and I bear it gladly.


- Firm believer in Mindflayer supremacy -
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