Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

To be fair this event is actually surprisingly unlikely, rather, Tav has a soul and souls are very valuable to an Archdevil so they would likely try to contractually bind them above all else instead of just outright killing them.

Hotfix 3 just released and there are 2 fixes regarding Karlachs endings, should we keep our hopes up?

> Fixed an issue in one of Karlach's final dialogues, causing it to end too early.
> Fixed an issue preventing one of Karlach's final scenes from triggering and made sure she's wearing her camp clothing in romance dialogues.

No, we shouldn't have hope; we should strive for our goal to be achieved. Hope alone won't accomplish anything. This complete mistake probably won't be fixed with just a hotfix, although for me, even a short scene showing Karlach's engine being repaired without any miraculous feats would be enough. Let this post explode with enough force that Larian can't just ignore it.

Any rewrites will be saved for one of the big patches, you're better hoping for a fix during one of them.

@Deepack

If you read Zariel's background and current plot that WOTC presents to us, she is a very troubled Archdevil, she faces abnormal civil strife within her own ranks (more so than the normal Archdevil, which must be really bad, if that's being stressed out). That is mostly due to her background, which makes both devils below and above her distrust her (again, more so than the "healthy" distrust between devils).

Furthermore, we know Karlach's heart engine is an outdated model when speaking to the gondsmen at the factory in the Avernus part of the game, which means that Zariel has access to much better troops to send over to the material plane.

Moreover, the people she sent over to capture Karlach in the game are pathetically underequipped, Karlach doesn't really get hunted much more in the game, this implies Zariel might not really give much of a crap about Karlach at all.

Another clue to her background, we have even the plot about Raphael trying to oust her, which just ties in with her WOTC cannon.

And lastly, as it was already pointed out, Tav stands in a unique position of possessing an extremely powerful soul that Zariel wouldn't pass over, she would likely free Karlach and restore her in exchange for Tav's services and his soul :P

Of course, you are right, but that doesn't change the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, "maybe yes, maybe no." If I have to choose between these three pathetic endings, I also choose the trip through hell. And of course, we can write it ourselves that it was a quick action, the engine was fixed, and a return to Faerun occurred. However, I would prefer not to have to write that for myself because it's glaringly obvious that this is how the story should end if someone wanted to save her.

Yes and no, Zariel is pursuing Karlach because she absolutely must punish her as an example. Karlach is known in hell as a very skilled warrior; her escape wouldn't go unnoticed. If Zariel were to simply let her escape, it could lead to even more escape attempts, something Zariel, given the dire situation, cannot afford. I'm afraid she would do whatever it takes to punish her as a deterrent as soon as she landed back in hell.


That's why, even more so, the solution to her engine problem should be resolved right there. We have experts at hand whom we've saved and who have access to technology that enables the proper functioning of such devices in Faerun. I don't understand why this aspect wasn't resolved right there.


Wyll theoretically isn't just anyone. A group of paladins is nothing to scoff at either. Perhaps he's well aware that he won't be able to function for long outside Avernus, and that's precisely why she doesn't send entire legions after her, or perhaps her other issues prevent that.


Yes, but we would return to a point where there is no good solution. An arrangement with Zariel wouldn't be beneficial for anyone; I don't think it would be a job contract where Tav kills demons for Zariel from Monday to Friday and then spends the weekend with Karlach.

It's not that these things are impossible. My frustration stems from the fact that solutions are within reach, which the game teases us with throughout the gameplay, only to end by metaphorically slapping the player in the face.

Overall, I have a strong impression that the entire ending, aside from Karlach's storyline, is rushed and underdeveloped compared to the rest of the game. Not to mention the fact that in the second act, I had to switch the game to English because half of the letters/documents/books weren't translated into my language, and instead of text, there were only two square brackets []. But that didn't bother me as much as the utter disappointment with the ending of such an otherwise fantastic adventure in such a pathetic manner.

It is generally not good writing to dangle a bunch of solutions to a problem in front of the reader, then skip ahead a bit and pretend there were no solutions without ever justifying why those potential solutions dangled previously were in fact impossible. It feels so horrendously railroaded and conveys a feeling of a desperate writer rather than a desperate character.

It's the same with V's problem in Cyberpunk 77. The friendly doc can't fix it and the corporation that owns the tech obviously isn't going to try, therefore V has no options and cannot be saved. Well, except there's a whole heap of other tech companies out there, all of whom would kill to get that tech. It's a nanite based tech so one presumes that enough EMP would slow them down a lot. They're following a programming, but why can't that programming be changed? It just cannot, because then the plot falls apart, therefore it is impossible!

Similarly, we have a character with a failing mechanical heart. We have access to a bunch of operational mechanical hearts of a newer generation. We have access to resurrection magic. We have a literal god of death on hand. Why is this even a particularly hard problem to fix, in the grand scheme of things? Why does it have to be? To be brutally honest, the ending here is fanfic level terrible. If it has to end badly then that's how it is, but at least make the story work. Make it meaningful. Make it an impactful statement of some kind. At least put in that much effort.

@Deepack


I would say its the other way around, Zariel personally persuing Karlach is a sign of weakness for Zariel to show, Devils only persue traitors and deserters that are on their close social caste. If a Archdevil is pissed running around chasing a slave bodyguard, it reflects poorly on Zariel.

Karlach is part of Zariel's bodyguard entourage, last time i check, this includes more than a thousand individuals. Karlach's escape would be mostly blamed on whoever recruited her, not on Karlach herself (she is property to them, not a person with free will).

This leads to:


Wyll was subcontracted to Mizora, whose much lower on the totem pole than Zariel, if one does Wyll's story, Mizora is mostly out of the way as a entity. As Karlach herself says, the group of "paladins" was fake, they were just human mercs mascarading as paladins of Tyr (if memory serves) that managed to lose to a low level party of adventurers, the game doesnt imply this directly, but i feel its Mizora that hired these mercs, not Zariel herself (which would extremely odd).


Completely agree, its extremely odd how the plot is presented and nothing is done about it.


Also agree here, i just think the most likely scenario outcome in the "Return to Avernus" is that Karlach is simply forgotten by Zariel and becomes just yet another "free" citizen of the infernal planes (as free as you can be under the fascist dictat of Asmodeus' society). With Tav and/or Wyll there, she likely has enough protection to not get enslaved again.

I know most here like to praise Karlach as a unique and powerful individual, but as far as Devil politics and her importance to Zariel goes, she honestly isnt that big of a deal. Tav's soul would be far more valueable to a up and coming devil than any of the 3 going to Avernus at the end of the game.

But again, there ample oportunity for the game to give Karlach a good ending and it clearly seems like a rushed job.

Maybe you're right, and in fact, I hope you are. However, it doesn't change the fact that Karlach remains trapped in a place where she repeatedly stated that she'd prefer to die than return. I hope that eventually, one of the gods of senseless death at Larian will speak up to inform us whether there are any plans to fix this absurdity.

Agreed, whether mistake or error, we can only hope the issue is rectified in the future.

This just seems to be fixing what's already ingame, I doubt anything was actually /added/ in terms of how the "good" ending plays out. We'll have to wait for larger patches, or even a Definitive Edition if we wish to see a real change.

This is the big problem, Its not that she has bad endings. Its that she only gets bad endings while potential solutions are RIGHT THERE and never touched on in any depth.

I do wonder just how extensive a Definite Edition of Baldur's Gate 3 changes could really be, I wouldn't innately expect anything grand, but it's been awhile since I've compared the differences between Normal and Definitive edition of Divinity original sin 2.

Karlach is, like, the one remaining element of some of the ideas that were present in early access but discarded prior to release. I appreciated her ending and thought it was moving and bittersweet, but it's also a joke that she's the one character who gets the short end of the stick.

In early access, BG3 had a thread running through it of people being unable to accept their present situation and seeking ways to escape it that only made things worse. Auntie Ethel is the most obvious example, a whole quest about it. Gale's magical consumption is another obvious one, where it was much more difficult to feed him three items and he would often end up making a deal with Raphael (can he even still do this?) But there are other little elements, too. Asking Volo -- a man with no medical experience and perhaps a tentative grasp on reality -- to root around in your eye socket would end up with you losing an eye, and a permanent change in your stats. Making a deal with Auntie Ethel was the same. These were bad ideas borne of a desperation to escape your situation. The dream visitor, "Daisy", offered you power -- was that worth it, or was it another bad deal?

Karlach appears to be the one character who goes, no, that stuff isn't worth it. This is my situation and the time I have left, I want to make the most of it. So, she does. She gets to save the world, fall in love, and make some great friends. Then, she dies. I think this would've been really powerful in a game where a lot of your other characters had tried to make deals with the devil, literal or otherwise, and suffered for it.

Instead, Gale can fix his condition with a few cheap baubles and reclaim his place as Mystra's lover. Lae'zel comes out the other side of her crisis of faith as a full-on revolutionary. Wyll can escape his pact and save his father. Tav's illithid powers have no consequence. But Karlach can't fix her engine, can't even look into it. Karlach has to die to serve a thematic point that no longer exists. So, it doesn't feel poignant or meaningful, but just kind of mean and bizarre.

A credit to everyone's contribution here, on reddit and discord. We've actually been noticed by gaming journalism site 'gfinity', check out the article: Justice for Karlach!

Yeah, its all this that make it sting the most. It makes Karlach feel like an afterthought in the world despite how impactful she's been to everyone that's encountered her ingame. A fetch quest into a kill quest, when the solution to her problem sits right there in act 3. Painful.

Justice for Karlach!