Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Story & Character Discussion [END SPOILS WARNING] Addressing Karlach (PLEASE PUT SPOILERS IN TAGS)

hi everyone. im glad that this topic gets this attention. i hope it wont take long til some youtubers notices this topic.


anyways, i have one question: does someone know what exactly got "fixed" in yesterdays hotfix regarding karlach? did we get a ending slide show for her or something similar? the answers would decide if i finish my run or abandon it and deinstall it.

Hello everyone,

Thanks all for not let Karlach fall into the land of good character with sloppy development.

You know what's worse than playing a bad game ? Playing an incredible game with a so lazy end. I mean this game could be easily game of this decade with only 1 quest step, 3 dialogues scene, and maybe one or 2 more cinematics. But no they wanted to have a frustrating character.

I mean it's an RPG in a Fantasy World, where almost everything you can imagine is possible. Karlach is one of, if no, the most "human" character, with one of the easiest issue of all the crew. She doesn't have to face a cult, an army, a entire race, the rage of the god, or the worst curse that ever exists... nah she just have to find some good blacksmith, 2 or 3 components, and that's it.
So how in the whole story you can justify that there's no better way out for Karlach that going back to Avernus ? Why if I do everything correct compared to the rules of the world that govern BG3, I cannot have a happy/good/romance ending for Karlach ?

As many other said, if they wanted to take Karlach as their tragic character, so this is not how you deal with a tragic character. A tragic character is well done when you understand with all the quest that there's no way you can save him from its situation, and the more you progress, the more the hope flies away.
Here's just one of the best character of the game, with a good backstory and an excellent audio work, and her story is just sloppy. All the game we can find dozens of means to save her, most of the game our best Mommy K healer is the only one blacksmith of the village that have to live like a nomad. Even him can do something, and even when he says he can't do more, dialogues are made to let you think there's so many other way. You literally visit a Forge with the so-called "best inventors of all Faerun" ffs !!

And if they absolutely want to give us a character with no good end, why with the only Loyal Good character man ?! I mean we have a radical cultist, a good soldier of her queen that kills everyone who's too weak, a dumb magician who's like Icarus flying too close to the Sun while flirting with a goddess... All of them seems to have a Free Redemption Pass. But the only true good character is like "so you suffer your whole life and now you want to live a simple happy life ? Haha get doomed back to the Avernus little barbarian snowflake !!" I'm tired of all those studios thinking that punishing the good guy is so edgy... No that's just boring...

It's like if Karlach was still in Early Access. And it kills most of the Replay Value for me, and even the will to finish the game. Proud to annouce "17,000 different ends", but unable to have one good/happy end for one the Companion/OC...

As Dewey could say about companions/OC before the full release : "I didn't expect anything, and I'm still disappointed".

Unfortunately no, these are "cosmetic changes." The further fate of the characters is still unknown, of course, except for Karlach, who, as we know, regardless of the choice, is condemned to something she doesn't deserve.


Exactly, I played through the whole game with bated breath, reaching the ending, I couldn't wait to see how things would unfold further. Not only do we not really find out anything, but also the best companion has a messed up situation.


And that's precisely the problem. Karlach is a character with whom it's easiest to identify. She simply wants to live, without needing power, money, or recognition, and as a reward for that, she gets the worst fate of them all. That's why this topic emerged, because the character doesn't deserve that.



Another excellent example is V from Cyberpunk. The game also tackles deep themes, and the ending is very sad, yet it's intricately woven into a logical whole, presented appropriately, and supported by strong arguments. And from what I know, an additional option for a happy ending is supposed to be introduced in dlc as well.


In my opinion, @Larian should quickly introduce even a temporary solution as an olive branch for the players. Personally, I think right after the ending, a slideshow with narration describing the further fates of all characters would be sufficient, but for heaven's sake, with a happy ending.


As I mentioned earlier, each of us knows firsthand that life isn't fair. We escape from this reality into games, onto motorcycles, into cars, and parties, just to flee from all the crap of everyday life. And truly, while playing Baldur's, I was convinced that I had missed something because I couldn't digest the fact that such a wonderful game could hit me with a direct shot to the face at the very end.

@Deepack

thank you for your answer.

larian, you raised my hopes and dashed them quite expertly.

I don't think framing it as Larian getting lazy or leaving her story unfinished is productive (or accurate!) The issue with Karlach's storyline is that she's tied to a lot of thematic points that no longer exist. Karlach outright tells you that she's going to live until she burns up, that she wants to spend it as happy as possible. That this is what ends up happening to her isn't a bad ending for her. It's only a bad ending because every other character can dodge their fate. It's most obvious with Gale, where Larian made it comically easy for him to just keep dodging his flaws and consequences. The problem of Karlach isn't that her ending is lazy or unfinished, it's that it feels tonally and structurally dissonant for one character to be given a bittersweet ending about accepting their situation and making peace with it when no other character has to. Like I said, I think she's a remnant of the earlier narrative. The story changed, her ending didn't.

Apparently, Karlach can also But that option didn't come up for me when she was present for the conversation.

Though your question was answered, I appreciate having you here. The fixes may have been cosmetic, but as far as we know, the Justice for Karlach movement may have been seen, and in time, when hotfixes are no longer as required, we may see change. Until then, we're just trying to keep our voices loud, but respectful about the game and about our hopes for the future.

Agree with most of the complaints here, but this is not a movement lmao. It’s a few mild complaints about a handful of controversial narrative decisions.

dont worry, ill stay. this became my passion project, ive made a reddit post 2 daysafter release and the comments became full of support and theory crafting.


i agree with you, just continue to be peaceful and respectful and hope for the best



#JUSTICE FOR KARLACH

Justice for Karlach!

@Milkfred

When you first encounter her, of course she wants to "live until she burns up". But the more you progress the more she wants to live. Same as Gale who first just want to do something for himself whatever who is impacted, but then he carries about the others in the group and think about it longer.
The moment Karlach has a piece of a solution, she wants to live, and ONLY IF there's no way to fix her, and at the very last moment, she will "accept" her fate to die. That's literally scripted in the game.

I mean we totally agree that she can have "bad" endings, that's the purpose of a RPG. If you fail something, you have to be prepared to have some bad news. But if you success, well you success, there's no reason not to save her if you do everything correct. She accepts to be a mindflayer if there's no other option. She accepts to die if there's no other option and you fail to convince her to live in Avernus. She accepts to go in the Avernus with you or Wyll if you try to convince her. Any of this is totally coherent. So why can't we find in all Baldur a very good blacksmith if we : - save everyone in Act 1 -save everyone in the forge - save everyone in the shadows ?


That's why her story doesn't give us a bittersweet ending as it was maybe intended as you suggest. Because everyone can escape their initial fate, all of them can have a long beautiful life, but not Karlach. That's not bittersweet, that's unfair, and unfair for no true reason. Especially when you have plenty of solutions in front of your nose while others like Lae'zel can be miraculous. Her queen has a Wish that she can use 100 times during the story to just kill her (and you can died like this if you pick some bad dialogue choices).
That lets a feeling that Karlach story is unfinished.


Maybe my words are hard in my comment, but I never say Larian Studio are lazy people. And I don't mind if Karlach's story is not as developed or important as Lae'zel or Shadowheart quests. But please finish her story with the same storyline consistency as for the other characters.
If she has to be the bittersweet character, so explain to the player why she can't be saved during the journey and what she have to do/fight to gets her freedom back as an epilogue.
If it was not intended that Karlach have a bittersweet end, so give her a mean to be saved during the journey and let her have a good/happy end like the others.

We don't want a happy end to have a happy end. We want her the same in-game chances as other companions to be saved. That's all.

I’m not saying this to be mean, but it comes across as just a little bit obsessive. It’s an ending for one companion in a video game. Let’s contextualise this a little bit. 100% want to see you guys get what you want because it would make the game better, but “movement” is a bit extreme. It’s just feedback.

I don't consider Larian to be lazy. It's just that both the ending and Karlach herself, in terms of quality and refinement, are far from the rest. The number of possibilities that BG3 offers in terms of mission resolution is truly incredible. The amount of detail present in the game at every step is absolutely stunning. However, this doesn't change the fact that the ending feels like a completely separate entity from the rest of the game. Throughout the game, you encounter logical explanations, precise information, etc. This is lacking in the ending. As for Karlach, in my opinion, there simply wasn't enough time for her development (just like for the ending). The Gondian Forge and the reference to a better version of the engine that can work in Faerun almost give the impression that the content where Karlach could be fixed was cut out or it might even be a quest bug that doesn't trigger.

BG3 is an outstanding game, but there are areas where it could and should be better.

The whole "Good person who just wants to live, but doesn't have the option to" trope they have going for her is just too much for me. Hits too close to home.

It sounds stupid, but it really is one of those things which has left that terrible knot in the pit of my stomach.

I just can't bring myself to keep playing, which is so sad, because I haven't felt this invested in a game in years.

Fine, I guess it’s just semantics then.
Justice for Karlach.

Quite the opposite of catharsis indeed.

I don't even dislike "tragic" endings. I genuinely adored the tone with which Cyberpunk 2077 ends where you leave Night City with the Nomads. It's made clear that while you don't have much time, you have a little, and you'll spend it with the people you care about.

That's it. The end of CP2077 is totally what a tragic/bittersweet end is, you know V is barely dead, you leave with the nomads hoping for a solution, but you know there's 99% chance that it will end in 6 months.
Also Lee in Telltale's The Walinkg Dead is a tragic character, as you know that he'll die and become a zombie real fast, but anyway he'll do everything to save Clementine.

But here Karlach's fate doesn't need to be that tragic in any way without a solution or at least an explanation. Her issue is not that bad as it shown in the game, compared to what we see, like a full region cursed, a forest spirit "cut in half", or a woman that cannot make her husband live as he's dead and rotting for months.

#JusticeForKarlach
#LetTheGondiansFixHerHeart

It goes to show what a loveable character they've manage to create. So many of us have been looking forward to playing this game for years and so many of us love it aswell, but we would rather stop the experience early rather than going through to the end knowing what sort of emotional distress it'll cause us, and I think that speaks to how invested some of us are in this incredible game.

So please Larian allow us to fully enjoy this game, allow us to work towards a happy ending if that's the route we choose to pursue. Don't make us feel as if all the work and emotions we're putting in is all in vain that there will be no happy ending for us even after overcoming all the challenges that've been thrown at us.
Alot of us play these games as an escape from reality (myself included) and I know most of us want to feel good and excited when we close the game for the night, not an overwhelming sense of anxiousness and dread of what's to come when you start it up again the next day.

So please allow us to feel we have the power to save those we love and care for. For this exact feeling is the reason some of us escape reality and immerse ourselves so heavily in these games.

Yes this is how I've felt as well. I can not bring myself to push forward and have simply opted to taking an extended break from the game.

The endings could be more acceptable if they felt narratively earned. They are an ending to a specific tragedy, but it proceeded in such a way that it feels hollow.