Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Build Discussion Moon Druid Subclass Implementation: Discussion & Feedback

Great game, generally a great implementation of the 5e ruleset. Honestly all the positives of this game make it all the more glaring how broken Moon Druids and Wild Shape are in their current form.

Disclaimer: I know coding is not easy. I’m sure Wild Shape presents some very challenging coding issues. And this also isn’t a gripe about min/maxing. This post is about pointing out that Wild Shape simply isn’t functional in its current state, and it breaks immersion over and over again using it.

First, the forms you get vary wildly from source material. This is forgivable, but a bit jarring. A polar bear? No multi attack? But ok, fine, like I said, easily forgivable.

What’s not forgivable is the way magic items and near zero multi class features work while wild shaped. Those issues go beyond simply tweaking the animal stats for balance reasons. These are bugs, straight up. And if they aren’t bugs, then we have diverged from the RAW to the extent that it ruins the class fantasy.

Druids should be able to retain multi class features while wild shaped. If not the active abilities, at least the passives. And the vast majority of passives conflict in some way with wild shape. Magic items simply not working anymore? Ouch. Ouch. Again, at least the passives from magic items should remain functional.

Don’t even get me started on concentration spells not functioning correctly in wild shape. At least that has been clearly identified as a bug - I think?

To put it simply: Wild Shape is immersion breaking, over and over again. And in a game that centers around RPG immersion goodness, playing a class that breaks immersion during its core mechanic is a big no-no.

That’s my gripe list. How to fix it? I’m not a coder, so I hate to complain and not help. One thing they could do is treat the animal forms basically as PCs. My gut says a lot of the issues stem from animal forms being given all sorts of strange abilities and modifiers, instead of just being treated like a Ranger pet or like any other animal with certain ability scores. Make the animal form stats and capabilities based purely on ability scores, with unarmed attacks that have slightly higher values and a different name like “claw” or “bite”. But they are still just unarmed attacks based off of strength.

Make animal AC values based purely on dexterity, with a straight forward “+X” value for Natural Armor. Instead natural armor is being treated AS regular armor instead of a modifier, creating all sort of issues with Unarmored Defense and AC modifying spells.

Like I said, I’m no coder. Maybe my suggestions (I.e. SIMPLIFYING animal stats and attacks instead of treating them as some special category of abilities) wouldn’t help, but that seems like the most intuitive, straight forward, and satisfying way of remedying the current issues with Druids and Wild Shape.

If most other classes can multiclass without an issue, namely because the PC is always treated as a PC, let’s start by treating our wild shape forms as PCs. PCs with regular PC stats and abilities. Not loading them up with unusual modifiers and work arounds that interfere with other game mechanics. Feels like we’ve cut the nose off to spite the face in the name of “balancing” the forms with all sort of strange modifiers that cause conflicts.

In other words: Wild Shape feels broken, from an amateur’s perspective, because they made the animal forms IN REVERSE. They wanted them to have XYZ stats and actions and engineered the forms to fit that vision using all sorts of tweaks and work arounds… instead of simply setting up the ability scores and actions/talents of the animals forms first, then working from that base template to tweak as appropriate. Switch the emphasis from how the end form performs in battle, to making a simple RAW base form functional, and Wild Shape may function a heck of a lot better.

I love this game, and that’s all the more reason I want my favorite class to work correctly. Give Druids some love and attention Larion, because right now Wild Shaping just feels confusing and so so icky to play. I assume most of us Druids would love a multi class dip (who doesn’t?) and multi classing as a Druid is just straight punishment with Wild Shape in current form. Serves almost no purpose besides RP. And I love to RP, except when my RP choices completely break immersion. Besides, even without the multi class issues the concentration bugs and magic items issues make a single class Druid immersion breaking.

A lot of the issues with Wildshape right now feel very counterintuitive too. Apparently Tavern Brawler is the only feat that actually works with Wildshape, so that seems to imply your Wildshape attacks benefit from Unarmed Strike boosts from other sources, but it does not.

In a game, as heavily itemization-focused as BG3 the fact gear doesn't affect your Wildshape forms is a huge problem. It seems like you hit max level long before the game comes to an end, so itemization is supposed to be how you continue progressing character power beyond that point. There's only two items in the game that I can find that boost Wildshape, and one is an 11AC armor, which itself is mind-boggling because at this point most armors are +2. Why is the purple druid Wildshape armor standard leather?

Because wildshape takes the stats of the animal, so the only armor that makes sense is leather?

Wildshape was bad during EA also. That’s why I stay with the spore Druid.

I don't know that "immersion" is the word I would use to describe the issues. But semantics aside, the equipment stats and benefits not transferring to your wild shape are RAW. According to 5e your equipment can either drop to the ground, stay on the animal if it makes sense that the animal could wear it, or merge with the new form. If it merges with the new form, the equipped item has no effect until you leave the form. Obviously Larian has gone with the third option and it makes sense. If you went with the first option you would have to redo your whole inventory every time you used wild shape. The second option would be complicated to visualise and does not make sense for most of the beast forms available - how would a bear wear a pair of boots? Perhaps the amulet slot could arguably still hang around the neck of some of the wild shapes. But the third option seemed the most straightforward approach for the computer game to work, and then it is RAW that you don't get any benefits from your equipped items any more.

Class features however should definitely transfer over according to RAW. So if you have action surge, uncanny dodge, extra attacks, portent or any other features given by your multiclass, they should apply when in wild shape as well.

I don't think Wild Shape is mechanically terrible as it is. The extra hit points pool you receive through a single bonus action is quite substantial. But it's basically what it does, because I am rarely able to maintain wild shape for more than one turn, so it provides a way of soaking up a lot of the damage received so I am still standing the next time my turn comes around. It would be more fun if you could also combine class features with the wild shape in new and interesting ways.

Immersion isn't the word I would use either. It's more immersion breaking that your magic items should somehow still work while you are in animal form, or the abilities of a humanoid form. So I actually like the version where the animal form is just that, a beast. If anything, it's more immersive and cool if the animal "takes over".

I'm playing a barbarian/druid MC right now. I can rage before going into wildshape and keep it going, but I can't initiate a rage once wildshaped. having the extra hp pool is doubly nice when coupled with resistance to all but psychic damage.

and I'm not sure how to quatify this, but on my Tav I have a lot of gear which seems to modify my jump distance. I also have the Athlete feat which impacts jump distance. My bear can virtually fly, leaping across the screen or on top of buildings. I know jumping scales off strength and the bear is strong, but I really believe it is more than that. So my take is the feat and or the gear modifying my jumps is still working. I also do seem to get extra attack in wildshape form (unless all bears get 2 swings).

FYI, reached level 12 and am now a level 6 wildheart barbarian and a level 6 circle of moon druid. I rage in humanoid form and attack twice the first round of combat, and then second round I now go owl bear, keeping the bear totem rage and swinging 3 times for decent damage with resistance to everything but psychic. I generally stay in owl bear form unless knocked out of it (very rare). I find it very enjoyable and the wildheart features and the beast forms to be very on point thematically. I also have the carrying capacity of a mid-sized elephant which is also useful.

I will say I don't have a whole lot of experience with Druids in this game so far; my main playthrough is an Oath of Ancients Paladin and I only recently completed act 2 and got Halsin and as followers and started seeing what this game's version of Druids could do. I just recently started a Moon Druid after a friend of mine (whose favorite class on tabletop is Moon Druid) finally tried out the game, but has been dissatisfied by his own playthrough as Moon Druid so far. In my short time I've noticed some things that bug me,

-Your character cannot talk to NPCs while Wild Shape'd, you have to switch control to one of your other party members in order to initiate dialogue with anyone. Now this makes sense and is accurate to PHB rules, however this wasn't the way I was informed this would work from my other playthrough where I got to play around with Halsin as a party member. If you talk to Halsin while he is in Wild Shape form, he'll revert to his normal form for the conversation and immediately switch back to animal form afterward, without having to expend an additional Wild Shape charge, which is really nice as you only get two Wild Shapes per short rest. I had assumed that player Druids would get this same consideration, but no, you have to prematurely end your Wild Shape and discard the charge if you want to talk to people with your character.

Even worse, encountering some NPCs and activating certain objects that trigger cutscenes can even end your Wild Shape automatically! When I met Astarian as a bear right after fighting the small bunch of Intellect Devourers on the beach, I was forcibly reverted to normal form so that the cutscene could play out, and the same thing happened upon clicking the button that opens Withers' tomb; the same button that immediately triggers a combat encounter. Playing Moon Druid means you'll often have to sacrifice your position as the party face for many dialogues, and you run the risk of the game robbing you of the full use of your already limited Wild Shape charges at unexpected intervals if you happen upon certain things while transformed.

This could be less of an annoyance with more Wild Shape charges becoming available as you level up, but in standard 5e rules, Druid does not get a progression similar to something like Barbarians who gain more Rage uses in a consistent manner, or even Warlocks and their limited spell slots. Druid is stuck with two charges of Wild Shape all the way until level 20 with their capstone ability, Archdruid, and this game's level cap is 12. I think this is an area where people wouldn't mind if Larian deviated from the PHB rules a bit and gave Moon Druids more charges. Alternatively, just let us auto-shift in/out of form for conversations/cutscenes without expending a charge like Halsin can.

-Shapeshifted Druids can't gain the benefits of magical equipment, in a game where the sheer variety of bonuses from magic items are incredibly helpful (and arguably crucial). Again, this is also adherence to PHB Druid rules, however I would argue this should only apply to mundane, non-magical items, because magical items can adjust their size and shape to fit the wearer, which is the same reason why a dragonborn could wear a magic helmet they take from the head of a slain goblin, or a human could put on Slippers of Spider Climb that previously belonged to a gnome. From the DMG, page 140:


Naturally this would still prevent Wild Shape'd Druids from using weapons and shields, as these are held instead of worn, and they can't get any benefit from early game non-magical armor, but it would mean they should be able to gain the benefits of magic armor with passive abilities/stat boosts. At the very least, it would be nice for Wild Shape forms to be able to gain benefits from their equipped jewelry.

-Bear Form can't shove. Why? Bears can absolutely shove things. The shove action seems to be removed from every form, and while that makes perfect sense for the smaller ones, I think it'd make sense for larger, stronger forms like Bear, Owlbear, Panther, Dilophosaurus, etc to be able to use it.

-Druids sometimes instantly die upon getting knocked out Wild Shape. Less to do with intended mechanics, this is a very troublesome bug that both I and my friend have encountered, and I've read that some other players have been having trouble with this as far back as when BG3 was in early access.

The intended mechanic in tabletop and (I assume) in BG3 is that, when a Druid is reduced to zero HP in Wild Shape, they revert back to normal form, with any damage from the attack remaining being subtracted from their true HP pool. A few times though, I've seen Druids instantly die when they get knocked out of Wild Shape, even if their base form was at full health and the remaining attack damage was nowhere near close enough to down them. And I mean DIE, because the Druid doesn't even get to make death saving throws, they're just instantly dead. This is extremely frustrating when it occurs.

The thing is, BG3 is significantly more itemization-focused than RAW 5e is. Gear is how you make unique builds with wacky mechanics and unusual mechanical interactions. It's a huge part of a character's power that didn't exist in 5e. Not being able to engage with that feels terrible and makes the looting experience just feel boring.

On top of that items that literally state they work in Wildshape sometimes don't. I have an amulet that is supposed to give Feather Fall when I am Wildshaped, but it currently gives Feather Fall to my caster form and the effect goes away when I Wildshape. I also have a hat that gives me an extra Wildshape charge that sometimes doesn't work, and my chest piece specifically designed for Moon Druids sometimes doesn't give my Wildshape forms the temp HP or extra AC it's supposed to give when I transform.

Which is perhaps the biggest issue right now. Moon Druid is riddled with bugs. The ability that lets your attacks ignore mundane resistances simply doesn't work, cutting your damage in half against most enemies at later levels. You can't Rage or use Action Surge while in animal form even though you could in 5e and a lot of feats that are supposed to work in Wildshape just don't right now, limiting build options even further.

Moon Druid can't even activate their own concentration spells in Wildshape, which is a core facet of their playstyle in 5e.

I've just renamed this thread so it makes sense to direct all Moon Druid subclass implementation feedback here (the original title specifically mentioned wildshape, but as others have pointed out that's not the only factor affecting moon druids' effectiveness in the game).

And, as I mentioned in one of those other threads, I've not played moon druid in the full release yet, though I did do a playthrough in EA.

My two biggest problems with the class, much as I enjoyed it, were (a) not being able to activate/move concentration spells like heat metal, call lightning & moonbeam when in wildshape and, (b) the ridicuous ease with which concentration is lost in BG3 which affects all classes but moon druids disproportionately given they are more reliant on concentration spells as they can't cast in wildshape. If just those two things were fixed, along with the bug that means you have to re-equip items after wildshaping to regain their benefits, for me the moon druid would be hugely improved.

By level 5, it was also much in need of some better wildshapes, but not having tried what we get in the full release I'm not yet able to comment on how far that's provided.

Btw, in my current playthrough I've just seen some armour that does look tailored for moon druids so I'll be aiming to get that once I get round to replaying my EA moon druid in the full release. For anyone who hasn't come across it, it's in Act 3 and ...

It tilts me so much that I have to preemptively come out of wildshape in an estimation of when I expect an encounter to end because if I'm in wildshape, the dialogue gets directed at a companion instead of me.

I can put up with the class being weak, having 98% of magic items not affect my class because for some reason wildshape turns effects off and attacks don't count for unarmed.

But losing important dialogue because of being wild shape pisses me off so immensely. If I wanted dialogue on companions, I would have rolled an origin character. Talking to a character while wildshaped should have you come out for the scene and then return you to wildshape after the cutscene.

Also, some companions like Halsin don't have the Call Lightning or Healing Word spell bound to their spell book, it's a base spell on the left side of the basic actions bar, which means you can't upscale those spells for him, so he is stuck with a level 3 Call Lightning the entire game. So bad.

Druid class as a whole is so bad. 95% of the spells are concentration with friendly fire aspect. Vines, Plant Growth, etc crowd control spells affect your allies just like you, and on top it requires concentration. Meanwhile hypnotic pattern is way stronger and has no friendly fire.

Putting so many concentration spells on druid is horrible because wild shapes have such low AC, so they get hit easily and even with war caster feat your concentration gets broken in a single turn or two. Not being able to recast Moonbeam/Call Lightning/Sunbeam in form is also pretty bad.

Shillelagh is also a useless spell because literally all legendary items are not druid staves/clubs, so you can't apply shillelagh to the Lathander mace or the Selune spear, and the only legendary staff is actually pretty much a Wizard staff. All those extra weapon proficiencies you have? Useless, Shillelagh won't apply to them.

Doesn't help that since there is no transmog you spend 100+ hours of a game looking like a paladin or warrior because 90% of the gear is fighter or monk gear, and hide armor is so much worse than scale armor in the medium armor category.


That's the single piece of armor which works with moon druid....and it comes by almost the end of the game. So lame! Same for spore druid, the spore druid armor is sold by that same vendor.

The item imbalance in favor of monks and fighters/paladin/barb is crazy, they just have items rained on them while the other classes have like 1-2 pieces of very rare armor in the entire game.

Repost from my other thread:

So, after playing BG 3 as a Moon Druid, I have to ask, what's the point of this subclass? In dnd 5e tabletop Moon Druids are considered one of the strongest subclasses for a reason. You get extra health, damage, etc, while still being a full caster.

In BG 3 though they serve no purpose. Not because their forms are weak, but because both Spore and Land Druid get the same level of power with extra stuff on top of it. Land gets extra spells, Spore gets damage and minions. Both can turn into an owlbear, both get extra hp, both get extra attack.

Moon druids:

Level 6 ignoring magic resistance - magic weapons are everywhere. And most bossess have got resistance/immunity to physical damage in general, meaning its completely pointless feature.

Extra forms:
-Bear is weaker than dire wolf and no pack tactics.
-Dire Raven is a great scout and that's about it.
-Sabretooth Tiger is solid and can knock enemies prone, but only comes online at level 6.

Lunar Mend is Terrible, you're better off using short rest or have somebody else heal you like healing word, etc.

Being able to wildshape as a bonus action is the only good thing, but you could always be in Animal form prior to the fight.

To make matters worse, you cant move concentration spells in any of the wildshapes.
Owlbear rage charges disappear at level 8 I think, due to bug.
Elemental forms come online at level 10, which means Moon Druid is weaker for the vast majority of the first two acts. If you really want them, respecing at level 10 seems like the best solution.
Most feats and features that could work, don’t or are bugged. Like rage from Barbarian + wildshape.

TLDR:

Moon Druid should be the best at using wildshape and have access to most powerful forms and abilities, but come across as weaker than other subclasses, as they get the same powers and then some.

Some ideas:

-Make level 6 feature do something like extra damage, turning immunity into resistance. Or rebalance the bosses. Or just fix it.
-Restrict other circles only to the basic 4 forms you get at the beginning with maybe polar bear and raven added later. Owlbear could come online at level 10 for non Moon Druids.
-Allow only Moon Druids to benefit from magic items in the wildshape, even if only passive components.

What do you think?

Druid in general is a mediocre/weak class, we don't need to nerf the better subclasses just to make the most terrible one look less bad. Wildshape in general is weak and is supposed to be a core of the class. Land druid as a spell caster is just a mediocre wizard/sorc with a worse spellbook and with access to wildshapes, which are weak.

Buff wildshapes, buff Lunar Mending and make woldshapes adopt your native AC or have a moon druid passive that gives advantage and +1/+2 to saves while wildshaped.

Moon druid and Spore druid should have extra melee attacks not just in wildshape but in human form as well, to make the class less dependent on spamming short rests.

Other problem with druid is their cantrips are terrible, they do no damage, so you don't have a source of decent consistent damage outside your wildshape charges. Moon Beam falls off a cliff in scaling in the latter half of the game. Call Lightning is OK but not amazing.

Don’t need to rephrase everything that was already succinctly stated, but I will throw out my agreement.

Druid is just plain weaker than cleric. I prefer druids quite a bit, but that’s the truth of it. Making two subclasses match the weakest third is not a sufficient solution.

Weird take, but okay.

Bear has more HP and a stronger attack than Wolf, so that's just plain wrong.

Comparing Lunar Mend to short resting is ridiculous - one is obviously meant to be used in-combat, while the other is just as obviously out-of-combat. Lunar Mend is pretty decent bonus action healing. Sure, Healing Word with a +5 spellcasting modifier is nice, but Lunar Mend outscales it at higher spell levels. It also maintains nice action economy - in Wildshape, you're not often going to have a bonus action available other than Lunar Mend while your spell slots are just sitting there unused. Might as well be self-sufficient and free up the bonus actions and spell slots of whomever you were counting on to cast that Healing Word.

Being able to Wildshape as a bonus action IS a good thing. If you're low on HP and don't want to eat a spell slot, you can drop your Wildshape as a free action and re-Wildshape, all while staying in the middle of the action with your action ready to use for attacking. That's a FULL HEAL from a bonus action that recharges on short rest. Nobody else does that.

Overall, it sounds like you haven't embraced the bestial Swiss Army Knife. A bit of bugfixing would be nice so that Moon Druids had a few more options with the Moonbeam/Call Lightning spells. If anything, I wish Moon Druids got one more Wildshape charge so that I wasn't using half of my combat resources during exploration tasks, similar to how a number of ritual spells work for out-of-combat usage.

But you do use your bonus action in wildshape. Your strongest forms are owlbear and myrmidons. For owlbear, you should be using crushing leap, a bonus action, before even attacking not only because it's free damage, but a chance to make enemies prone and increase your hit chance while limiting their movement on their turn. On myrmidon, it's the teleport.

Lunar Mend is a horrendously bad skill. It is a waste of a spell slot. You get way more of an action economy using that lv4-5 spell slot on an actual nuke like Ice Storm or Insect Plague or Mass Cure Wound than you get out of a crappy lunar mend. It is an absolute waste of a spell slot since a Life Domain shadowheart will heal more with a lesser spell slot investment if you're desperate to not be knocked out of form and need the healing.

In general, druid healing spells until Mass Cure wounds are horrendously bad and spell slot inefficient to begin with. You want your life domain clerics doing the healing. Hell, with how many health pots the game rains on you, it's actually even better to throw a health potion over using regular healing word/cure wound on a druid since you don't guarantee max and increased healing like a life domain cleric does.

I was about to start a druid, but given the feedback here, I think I'll hold off until I see some patch notes about this stuff. At the moment, it mainly sounds like druid is extremely frustrating to play. Hope Larian chimes in at some point, they seem to have been doing pretty well so far.

Regarding subclass comparison, as it's own thing:

Spore druid is the "Forget about wildshape. I don't care about being an animal, I just want to cast druid spells as a caster character. I'll being in humanoid form at all times, so please give me something else to do with my wildshape charges so they aren't a waste." subclass.
And so it does. Spore druids aren't really meant to use animal forms in the first place, so talking about how effective they are is a bit of a moot point. If you're an animal as a spore, you're doing something wrong. Change subclasses if you're gonna do that.

Moon druid is the "Screw spells. I don't care about being a caster, I just want to be a beast. I'm going to be in animal form at all times, so please give me something else to do with those spell slots so they aren't a waste." subclass.
And so it does. Moonies can use spell slots to heal themselves in beast form so players don't feel like part of their build is being wasted by never being in human form. Not to mention the healing actually keeping them in the animal form instead of getting reverted by enemies. If you're in humanoid form casting spells as a moonie, you're doing something wrong. Change subclasses if you're gonna do that. And appreciate having less competition in your party for the best items I suppose.

I honestly don't remember what Circle of Land gets to differentiate them from other subclasses, but presumably they're the hybrid subclass for actually using both your spells and your wildshape.
So if you intend to use both druid features, to do things with spells before wildshaping, use either at different times, or charge in in animal form until knocked out of it and be a caster after, go land druid. The other subclasses are for picking one of the two, not doing both.