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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Total fanfiction moment, but I would have been thrilled to be able to talk to Withers and somehow trade my player character's life for Karlach, or something similar. I'm all for a self-sacrificial moment if it saves a loved one. Cheap heart string pulling moment, but I'm all for sappy shit like that.

Considering Withers is the "servant" of Acererak the lich, trading Karlach soul with PC soul could lead to an epic crossover between Acererak unleashing his power and Zariel fighting this false god in the name of her Fury of the Avernus. Here comes the Doom cool

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In all that situation, so that it would not be so offensive and soften Karlach lonely death. I choose to blow up Gale during the battle with the brain.Despite the fact that the option where they are alive and return to Avernus together seems to me softer, because who knows what might be there. But sometimes there are worse things than death.

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Originally Posted by Omaeka
I think people are overlooking the Avernus with Tav option. Knowing Zariel in DnD lore, she would accept them both as Champions, and they could fight the Blood War together. While this seems like a cruel fate for Karlach, from her dialogue we can see that she didn't run from Avernus because she was a 'slave', she ran because she was alone, having her chance at love and connections stolen by being stowed away into a realm of heartless Devils (enforced by her Compassionate approval tag). She had respect and titles (Demonbane), Mazora was jealous of how much Zariel favored Karlach over others, and Karlach admits that she enjoyed fighting demons (further enforced by her Violent approval tag).

It would be very in character for Zariel to forget about Karlach's insubordination should she come back to her willingly, and pretty much guaranteed with Tav offering themselves as another Champion (A base level 12 character with direct patronage from a Lesser Deity is extremely powerful, even more so in the Deity's own realm of influence). It is bitter sweet, and horribly resolved in the actual game with no sliders or post credit scene or quick in-game battle against Demons surrounded by friendly Pit Fiends etc., but Tav and Karlach continuing their lives and romance as Champions of Zariel is not a bad fate by any means, and would cure Karlach of the loneliness that ate at her in Avernus. The main issue with this ending is the execution, the Soprano's style fade-to-black with no shown or implied resolution. For all we know Zariel immediately kills Tav and forces them into a soulcoin to punish Karlach (very unlikely, Zariel puts protecting the multiverse from the Abyss above all else) or they arrive in Avernus and immediately run for their lives being hunted like rabbits. The resolution isn't there, their fates are left to interpretation which in other stories can work, but doesn't work here.

Now I'm not saying that she shouldn't have a more difficult resolution to her quest that sees her live happily in Fayrun alone or with a romanced Tav, she should. Returning to Avernus with Tav should be an outcome from a quest-fail state combined with a successful romance, not the best outcome. However it's the best outcome we get, and knowing DnD lore, their fate would not be a terrible one. They get to have their fairytale romance in the downtime between fighting in the Blood War. We are just not shown this, and Larian failed to resolve the storyline they implemented with poor execution rather than poor ideas.

You know what, thank you for this (and the following posts on the topic), because I indeed didn't have much context on Zariel. Just like others (and you yourself, credit where it's due), I still maintain that it sucks plot-wise and DnD-mechanic-wise that we don't have an option or a choice to struggle for a happier ending for her (especially with opportunities presented and compared to others), so to that end I'll MUCH hope for an addition somewhere down the line, but for so long as we have to work with what we have for now... That's an interesting point to consider. Will make imagining what could happen after much easier. The bitterness of the fact that she absolutely never wanted to go back there and that nothing really progressed for her character except for Tav (and being able to touch people at last, hopefully that stays) is still there, but at least it doesn't sound that bleak.


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Hi im a fellow I just created this account to talk about this. Im in act 2 romacing Karlach and im glad I read this spoilers. I could write a lot but everything I wanted to say has already being said here and im not going to just write the same thing everybody is writing but I am going to say/repeat LARIAN GIVE KARLACH THE ENDING SHE DESERVES. She deserves the ending that she wanted: to live in baldurs gate with your tav or origin, there is so many foreshadowing and dialogue for solutions, damon gives you one of them in ACT1 he says: you need a way to cool the engine, are you seriously telling me that a coolant for her engine cant be created?(obviously there can be a lot of different ways to solve the problem in ACT3 but like I said im still in ACT2)

Larian I know you love choices and consequences and I do too so with that in mind:

here are 2 ways this could be solved from the top of my head without doing many spoilers:

1) the obvious one is that somebody in baldur gate can create it but you have a choice: fix karlach enging so she can stay in baldur gate forever or they can give you this amazing weapon/armor but not both because it uses some item that there is only one in the entire game.

2) there is a spell called wish in DnD it is even used in this game in some specific way by a specific person so the spell exists in the game. Have a quest where there is an object that can cast the wish spell but the object selfs destruct after using the spell and there is only one of this objects in the entire game, make it so the object has other choices besides the karlach one so the choice has weight. An evil of selfish tav or origin may use the wish for himself.

finally to finish I just want to say #JusticeForKarlach.

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Well, I did the ending where

she becomes a mindflayer to save the world/etc.

I was surprised at how (relatively) well that turned out. She seems happy. Everyone sings her praises. There are no ominous hints about her future. And, in my game at least, there is

a friendly neighborhood mindflayer - Omeluum - who could no doubt help her adapt to living as an illithid. Especially the problem of what she's going to eat.

Is this... a happy ending? Hmmm.

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Originally Posted by Tarlonniel
Well, I did the ending where

she becomes a mindflayer to save the world/etc.

I was surprised at how (relatively) well that turned out. She seems happy. Everyone sings her praises. There are no ominous hints about her future. And, in my game at least, there is

a friendly neighborhood mindflayer - Omeluum - who could no doubt help her adapt to living as an illithid. Especially the problem of what she's going to eat.

Is this... a happy ending? Hmmm.

Becoming a mindflayer is not a good end for anyone, as you become more and more a brain eater that doesn't remember who he was in a short time.
Omeluum is kind of the exception proves the rule
We assume at the very end any people becoming a mindflayer has a bad end.

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Originally Posted by Kimba
Omeluum is kind of the exception proves the rule

There are TWO exceptions we meet in this game. Two that claim to be exceptions, anyway. I'm not sure if Larian is playing fast and loose with the lore (entirely possible, they do it elsewhere) or if being free of an elder brain's influence means retaining more of yourself.

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Originally Posted by tarraxahum
Originally Posted by Omaeka
I think people are overlooking the Avernus with Tav option. Knowing Zariel in DnD lore, she would accept them both as Champions, and they could fight the Blood War together. While this seems like a cruel fate for Karlach, from her dialogue we can see that she didn't run from Avernus because she was a 'slave', she ran because she was alone, having her chance at love and connections stolen by being stowed away into a realm of heartless Devils (enforced by her Compassionate approval tag). She had respect and titles (Demonbane), Mazora was jealous of how much Zariel favored Karlach over others, and Karlach admits that she enjoyed fighting demons (further enforced by her Violent approval tag).

It would be very in character for Zariel to forget about Karlach's insubordination should she come back to her willingly, and pretty much guaranteed with Tav offering themselves as another Champion (A base level 12 character with direct patronage from a Lesser Deity is extremely powerful, even more so in the Deity's own realm of influence). It is bitter sweet, and horribly resolved in the actual game with no sliders or post credit scene or quick in-game battle against Demons surrounded by friendly Pit Fiends etc., but Tav and Karlach continuing their lives and romance as Champions of Zariel is not a bad fate by any means, and would cure Karlach of the loneliness that ate at her in Avernus. The main issue with this ending is the execution, the Soprano's style fade-to-black with no shown or implied resolution. For all we know Zariel immediately kills Tav and forces them into a soulcoin to punish Karlach (very unlikely, Zariel puts protecting the multiverse from the Abyss above all else) or they arrive in Avernus and immediately run for their lives being hunted like rabbits. The resolution isn't there, their fates are left to interpretation which in other stories can work, but doesn't work here.

Now I'm not saying that she shouldn't have a more difficult resolution to her quest that sees her live happily in Fayrun alone or with a romanced Tav, she should. Returning to Avernus with Tav should be an outcome from a quest-fail state combined with a successful romance, not the best outcome. However it's the best outcome we get, and knowing DnD lore, their fate would not be a terrible one. They get to have their fairytale romance in the downtime between fighting in the Blood War. We are just not shown this, and Larian failed to resolve the storyline they implemented with poor execution rather than poor ideas.

You know what, thank you for this (and the following posts on the topic), because I indeed didn't have much context on Zariel. Just like others (and you yourself, credit where it's due), I still maintain that it sucks plot-wise and DnD-mechanic-wise that we don't have an option or a choice to struggle for a happier ending for her (especially with opportunities presented and compared to others), so to that end I'll MUCH hope for an addition somewhere down the line, but for so long as we have to work with what we have for now... That's an interesting point to consider. Will make imagining what could happen after much easier. The bitterness of the fact that she absolutely never wanted to go back there and that nothing really progressed for her character except for Tav (and being able to touch people at last, hopefully that stays) is still there, but at least it doesn't sound that bleak.

If Larian understands the DnD lore well, she would live a compromised, but relatively good life with Tav in Avernus. Devils aren't mindless monsters, their sole reason for existence in the current lore is to oppose the mindless and chaotic monsters in the Abyss. They have an extremely strict code and follow the lawful part of their cosmic alignment much more strictly than their Celestial counter parts, which says a lot. Karlach being crowned as a Champion of an Archdevil would have afforded her influence and stability in their society. She would even have the respect of the Pit Fiends (very interesting beings btw, I recommend looking them up, they are far more nuanced and heroic than their appearance would make them seem). It is likely her title of Demonbane came from a Pit Fiend itself, which is a massive show of respect, as they utterly despise weak or unworthy denizens, and are the proverbial judge jury and executioners of Hell. Most Archdevils leave the politics and organization of the Blood War to their Pit Fiends. Zariel is the only exception to this as she fights in the Blood War herself, as a Fallen Celestial Berserker.

What Karlach doesn't want to return to in Avernus is the loneliness. Devils make for poor company for someone who yearns true love and companionship, someone with the wants and desires of mortals. She wouldn't have been abused or tormented, her position in Avernus would have been concrete and comfortable for as long as she could perform in the Blood War, which was easy for her. She is terrified of going back to that unthathomable loneliness, but she wouldn't have that with Tav by her side, which is why her reluctance to go back with Tav is so confusing. As long as they were both comfortable with their stations, as Champions and a duo of Demonslaying romance, which they would be, they would both be offered respect and comfort with one another. The Devils would have no resentment or care for the love they share, an alien concept to them, when it can be weaponized against the Demons, it would even be encouraged. There is simply no chance that Zariel would see the love they share and try to destroy it when it would be such a huge boon to her Champions and a valuable asset in her eternal war.

This is assuming Larian actually give a shit about the lore of Baatur of course, if they perceive it as a generic Hell type plane where everyone is tormented and tortured for no reason, then going back is a horrible fate.

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Originally Posted by Omaeka
Originally Posted by G4RIIK
I did cover the Avernus ending (somewhat extensively, with options) in my original post. Fact of the matter is for the entire game (until that end), Karlach is adamant in not only her refusal to return to Avernus, but also returning to Zariel's servitude as the 'Fury of Avernus'. That simply wouldn't be any shade of positive ending for the character. Best case scenario, Larian forges a good ending from the pieces left on the table in Act 3, and allows us to fix her heart. But second to that, the House of Hope, Doomslaying through Zariel's forces and demons in Avernus, some kind of positive epilogue. But certainly not serving Zariel in any capacity.

They wouldn't last long having to contend with the Abyss and Zariel's forces, Karlach would lose her patronage from Zariel and would not have the powers she required in Avernus to survive. The positivity of this ending would be having Tav at her side, and I believe that would bring her happiness whether she served Zariel or not. Of all the Archdevils, Zariel is the most motivated and and has little care for personal slights if a resolution would aid her in the Blood War. She would likely even allow them permanent residence in the House of Hope and to live their lives unimpeded and with dual patronage should they aid in her efforts against the Abyss. Don't get me wrong, I despise what Zariel did to Karlach, but there is no questioning that she is the most fair and least deceitful of the Archdevils, due to her dormant Celestial nature.

If Larion cares enough to resolve Karlach's questline with an ending that is remotely satisfying, it is most likely to be something involving Zariel and Avernus, and unfortunately two level 12 characters stand absolutely no chance in Avernus without allegiances and patronage. Even at level 20 they would be living on borrowed time. Karlach despises Zariel because of what she took from her, not due to her treatment over the 10 years of her servitude. There can be no happy endings in the Nine Hells, the nature of those planes quite literally forbids it. So Larian can either write a completely new outcome to her storyline that involves her deserved fairytail ending in Faerun or she compromises in Avernus and plays the best hand she's got, with the person she loves.

Step 1: Be in Act 3, learn from the Steel Watcher that Karlach's heart is an early version of theirs.
Step 2: Rescue Zanner's daughter, tell him.
Step 3: Clear the Steel Watch Foundry
Step 4: Tell Zanner about your issue
Step 5: Compassionate because you saved his daughter, he builds a final heart with Dammon for Karlach.

3/5 of these are already ingame and provide a much more satisfying ending than returning to Zariel's service, which is something Karlach clearly doesn't want to do. She wants to live, on the material plane, and the pieces are right there.

I understand your point, and the lore (I even played a D2A game where we redeemed Zariel). But if they were to expand on the Avernus ending, it would go entirely against Karlach's character to actively seek servitude again, even as a Champion. Allying with a different evil to defeat Zariel toward the end of leaving Avernus? Very possible. Utilizing the House of Hope? Very possible. But there's simply no logic to saying that Karlach (and Tav by extension) should return to the slaver who she would rather die than return to service to. The reason she returns is to live /with Tav/ not because Avernus suddenly became the better option than death, but because Tav (And Wyll, who clearly states he'll protect her from Zariel) is with her.

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Originally Posted by Takamori
As a Karlach enjoyer and after finishing the game I support OP and also there is the Nightsong, couldn't Selune extend her grace to Karlach? You can even mention this to Gale and he gets interested about it.

While its somewhat fantastical, Divine Intervention is an option that is /right there/ in the game that we don't really get to use narrative wise. Its unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
Is the Romanced Karlach ending really that bad? I'm still on Act 2, but I
am romancing Karlach so she doesn't have to go to Avernus alone. It makes sense for my fireproof Zariel Tiefling Red Dragon Sorcerer.

Unfortunately the best option we have at the moment, you're on the right track!

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I just read that Larian is preparing a patch 1 release. They say it’ll be big. I wonder if fleshing out the endings and Karlach’s in particular will be in there. Fingers crossed!

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Given the work that'll have to go into it (potential writing, voice acting, animations, art, etc), I think patience is somewhat in order, as nice as a quick resolution like that would be.

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Originally Posted by Omaeka
<...> What Karlach doesn't want to return to in Avernus is the loneliness. Devils make for poor company for someone who yearns true love and companionship, someone with the wants and desires of mortals. She wouldn't have been abused or tormented, her position in Avernus would have been concrete and comfortable for as long as she could perform in the Blood War, which was easy for her. She is terrified of going back to that unthathomable loneliness, but she wouldn't have that with Tav by her side, which is why her reluctance to go back with Tav is so confusing. <...>

Well, I would argue that in the long run after ten years it doesn't really matter if the reason she hated Avernus was the loneliness alone and if going back with Tav fixes that issue. That's still ten years of enough negative feelings and connotations to drown out (or at the very least clearly not being enough to outweigh) whatever was tolerable or even occasionally positive. You don't scream to high heavens and break everything and cry due to being free from a place, as well as adamantly refuse to go back and be willing to rather choose death (at least at first) unless the time there REALLY got under your skin. Even if the main reason it sucked so much is negated via Tav, the trauma doesn't go anywhere. It still sucked, and everything about will still remind you of the way it felt before. Then there's also the feeling that you finally tried to make a choice to leave on your own terms and in the end that choice was denied to you. Missing home and the world outside also never really goes away, I wager.

So while yes, it's good to remember that DnD's Hell and particularly Avernus is not a stereotypical pit of misery, I don't think Karlach's issues with it - and with going back there - are negated by the fact Tav's going with her and it may be better now. That sure helps, but that pent up years-in-the-making repulsion doesn't just go anywhere. Even if they are given good positions and conditions and stay together, going back at all is gotta sting.

(Not to mention that on behalf of the character narrative that would kind of feel... patronizing, I dunno? Like, 'See, it wasn't that bad here, happy to see that you finished having your little tantrum and returned where you belong'. Not the worst ending, sure, but frustrating nevertheless.)

Disclaimer: Still haven't finished the game, so I may be missing some dialogue that might indicate she's coming around, but going off of others' posts it doesn't seem like there's any lead up like that at all. Which just makes going back feel like defeat in the end, ultimately. 'I tried so hard and got so far but in the end it doesn't even matter' (c) type a thing. So yeah, best of the bad endings? Sure! But the best, period? That's cruel.


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The more I think about it, the more I think Karlach whole character is flawed. You would think that somebody who was sold as a slave, horribly mutilated and sent in the most brutal war of the whole DnD universe for years against her will would end up as anything else than a naïve, upbeat and easy going person with the face to match. Meanwhile, Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae'zel have a character which feels like it matches their tragic background.

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I didn't like Karlach's story at all, snapped off her head on my second run. The 'tough solider" act just isn't there, and feels forced. She is way too cheersome and sentimental for someone who fought the eternity in blood wars. She gives an impression of someone who just came home after exhausting town guard shift, or a sad tavern braggart, and not someone who been enslaved in hell by the devils for combat, imho

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Originally Posted by snowram
The more I think about it, the more I think Karlach whole character is flawed. You would think that somebody who was sold as a slave, horribly mutilated and sent in the most brutal war of the whole DnD universe for years against her will would end up as anything else than a naïve, upbeat and easy going person with the face to match. Meanwhile, Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae'zel have a character which feels like it matches their tragic background.

Originally Posted by Seventrussel
I didn't like Karlach's story at all, snapped off her head on my second run. The 'tough solider" act just not there, and feels forced. She is way too cheersome and sentimental for someone who fought the eternity in blood wars. She gives an impression of someone who just came home after exhausting town guard shift, or a sad tavern braggart, and not someone who been enslaved in hell by the devils for combat, imho

I feel like that's why she's such an endearing character though, that in spite of of all her suffering she is so positive and trying to make the most of the time she has.

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Originally Posted by tarraxahum
Originally Posted by Omaeka
<...> What Karlach doesn't want to return to in Avernus is the loneliness. Devils make for poor company for someone who yearns true love and companionship, someone with the wants and desires of mortals. She wouldn't have been abused or tormented, her position in Avernus would have been concrete and comfortable for as long as she could perform in the Blood War, which was easy for her. She is terrified of going back to that unthathomable loneliness, but she wouldn't have that with Tav by her side, which is why her reluctance to go back with Tav is so confusing. <...>

Well, I would argue that in the long run after ten years it doesn't really matter if the reason she hated Avernus was the loneliness alone and if going back with Tav fixes that issue. That's still ten years of enough negative feelings and connotations to drown out (or at the very least clearly not being enough to outweigh) whatever was tolerable or even occasionally positive. You don't scream to high heavens and break everything and cry due to being free from a place, as well as adamantly refuse to go back and be willing to rather choose death (at least at first) unless the time there REALLY got under your skin. Even if the main reason it sucked so much is negated via Tav, the trauma doesn't go anywhere. It still sucked, and everything about will still remind you of the way it felt before. Then there's also the feeling that you finally tried to make a choice to leave on your own terms and in the end that choice was denied to you. Missing home and the world outside also never really goes away, I wager.

So while yes, it's good to remember that DnD's Hell and particularly Avernus is not a stereotypical pit of misery, I don't think Karlach's issues with it - and with going back there - are negated by the fact Tav's going with her and it may be better now. That sure helps, but that pent up years-in-the-making repulsion doesn't just go anywhere. Even if they are given good positions and conditions and stay together, going back at all is gotta sting.

(Not to mention that on behalf of the character narrative that would kind of feel... patronizing, I dunno? Like, 'See, it wasn't that bad here, happy to see that you finished having your little tantrum and returned where you belong'. Not the worst ending, sure, but frustrating nevertheless.)

Disclaimer: Still haven't finished the game, so I may be missing some dialogue that might indicate she's coming around, but going off of others' posts it doesn't seem like there's any lead up like that at all. Which just makes going back feel like defeat in the end, ultimately. 'I tried so hard and got so far but in the end it doesn't even matter' (c) type a thing. So yeah, best of the bad endings? Sure! But the best, period? That's cruel.

Yeah I get all of that and you're right, I'm not saying she should live in Avernus or return to Zariel if there are other options, just as a possible outcome and the only outcome we have right now in this miasma of despair that are her endings that could end with a positive resolution down the line. Tav and Karlach could plot against Zariel with another powerful Devil to overthrow her in return for Karlach's heart and freedom, defeat her themselves without ever entering servitude by playing the Game of Baatur with some of the powerful but imprisoned Devils in Avernus, which is exactly what happened in Descent. With how powerful we're becoming by the end of the game, Tav could even enter a pact with Asmodeus to go over Zariel's head. There's a billion possible resolutions to returning to Avernus that end with freedom back in Faerun, and by the Hells do I want to fight some Pit Fiends! Especially after their awful representation in BG1&2.

I really hope nobody thinks I want her to return to Zariel for eternity or some sh*t, I love the lore of Baatur and can see the potential in returning there with her, and it's one of the paths Larian could take that leads to the resolution she deserves. Could even enter an agreement/bargain with Withers to return her from the City of the Dead with true resurrection. Something. Especially after Gale
has an almost identical story with higher stakes that he escapes from

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Originally Posted by Omaeka
I really hope nobody thinks I want her to return to Zariel for eternity or some sh*t

Nah, not at all, I was just saying that I understand why she'd be hesitant to go back even together with Tav. I love the idea of an epic Hell heist by the way, my Tav is stubborn and reckless as they come, she'd be 100% down for it laugh

Originally Posted by snowram
You would think that somebody who was sold as a slave, horribly mutilated and sent in the most brutal war of the whole DnD universe for years against her will would end up as anything else than a naïve, upbeat and easy going person with the face to match. Meanwhile, Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae'zel have a character which feels like it matches their tragic background.


Originally Posted by Seventrussel
She is way too cheersome and sentimental for someone who fought the eternity in blood wars.

Hey now, everyone copes with hard past differently. For some it's through positive attitude and refusing to think about the trauma and confront it (either 'cause it's too painful or because they don't see the point). Maybe if I don't look at it, it'll go away (aka "Can we not talk about my engine exploding please and thank you"). Also known as the "If I stop clinging to positivity for one second I will lose it" people. That's how I approach life (sans being the Blood War soldier, but y'know, in general), I can tell you that much.

Besides, you said it yourself, we already have examples of more serious/gloomy/hard approaches to tragedy in our party.
Lae'zel for soldier brainwashing, Wyll for war hero, Gale for exploding heart problems and Astarion for barely-escaped slave trauma

Why not have some variety? There's its own tragedy in loving life despite it trying to break you (as evident by the majority of emotional responses in this thread alone, not to mention wider playerbase)


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Originally Posted by tarraxahum
Originally Posted by Omaeka
I really hope nobody thinks I want her to return to Zariel for eternity or some sh*t

Nah, not at all, I was just saying that I understand why she'd be hesitant to go back even together with Tav. I love the idea of an epic Hell heist by the way, my Tav is stubborn and reckless as they come, she'd be 100% down for it laugh

Originally Posted by snowram
You would think that somebody who was sold as a slave, horribly mutilated and sent in the most brutal war of the whole DnD universe for years against her will would end up as anything else than a naïve, upbeat and easy going person with the face to match. Meanwhile, Astarion, Shadowheart and Lae'zel have a character which feels like it matches their tragic background.


Originally Posted by Seventrussel
She is way too cheersome and sentimental for someone who fought the eternity in blood wars.

Hey now, everyone copes with hard past differently. For some it's through positive attitude and refusing to think about the trauma and confront it (either 'cause it's too painful or because they don't see the point). Maybe if I don't look at it, it'll go away (aka "Can we not talk about my engine exploding please and thank you"). Also known as the "If I stop clinging to positivity for one second I will lose it" people. That's how I approach life (sans being the Blood War soldier, but y'know, in general), I can tell you that much.

Besides, you said it yourself, we already have examples of more serious/gloomy/hard approaches to tragedy in our party.
Lae'zel for soldier brainwashing, Wyll for war hero, Gale for exploding heart problems and Astarion for barely-escaped slave trauma

Why not have some variety? There's its own tragedy in loving life despite it trying to break you (as evident by the majority of emotional responses in this thread alone, not to mention wider playerbase)

Yeah I can understand why she's hesitant too, but that damn smile she has when Wyll offers vs her look of pure agony when Tav offers is horrible, what in the Nine Hells was Larian thinking lol

Hell heist would be epic!

Also good job addressing those two posts, I wanted to but had no idea how to do it in a mature manner

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