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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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That is not not about tactics - it's about luck. When you rely on rolling dice for a successful hit on a knockdown opponent, it is about luck ^^ And part of the genre/game mechanic. I don't think that's what they are referring to, though. The dice rolls for things like saves, attack rolls, damage, etc are definitely part of the game. I don't know if I agree with the examples they posted above, but I do agree it's an issue especially in certain fights where you are forced into bottlenecks against unwinnable odds where your main option to win is increasing your own numbers or trying the fight, dying, then save scumming. The problem is that the game puts you in unwinnable situations either due to design and/or AI. There are a lot of situations where you face 10, 15, or 20+ mobs at once in a small area with a narrow entryway and the enemy AI may just choose one PC to beat up on. In that case, there is nothing you can do and they just die and hope they choose differently next time, which encourages save scumming. In a tabletop game, unless your DM is just an ahole, this won't happen, but with a computer making these decisions, IMO they should do something to even the odds a bit and prevent this from happening. Players shouldn't be dying during encounters the first time there solely because they didn't know the fight was coming or the mechanics of it, there should be some way to adapt to it without getting killed. Again the way it is now in places encourages people to go in, die, then try again rather than giving them a chance to adapt. This is a major problem in Act III where you are outnumbered 4 or 5 to 1 in several cases. IMO there should be some kind of bonus to initiative if there is a major level discrepancy or if characters are outnumbered beyond a certain threshold. Either that and/or let combat buffs idle until turn based mode starts so you can buff beforehand without it wearing off
Last edited by Shinook; 23/08/23 02:41 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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What you think is easy may not be.
And I think the devs deserve a bit of a break from major work post release. You're asking for a systems revamp because you can't control yourself and need to munchkin. If Modding difficulty is anything to go by, changing Point Buy to make it more or less is trivially easy. Make it more if you want an easier game and make it less if you want a harder game. Everybody's happy. Fear of munchkins is a silly reason to object to a change that adds more options to directly address both concerns that Story Mode is too hard (yes, that's a thing) and Tactician is too easy. I see no reason to complain about changes that Larian made that are kind of baked in at this point. It's a good game, warts and all. Suggestions are for things they can actually change, either with minimal effort or due to widespread requests even if it takes a little (or a lot of) effort. I have no fear of munchkins, but munchkining is why the game isn't a challenge. They're not likely to change anything for quite some time. Shit, good friend of mine is already bitching about the rest system and being out of spells all the time. Says the vancian system is dumb. Everyone wants the game changed to suit them.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2019
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I definitely agree that playing on tactician should be a challenge but Larian is known for braindead AI that's easily confused by elevation and line of sight. Or just cheesed with explosive barrels and invisibility. Would be great if AI tried to cheese the system the same way players do instead of just getting HP, AC, DC, and save roll buffs. There are a few enemies that go invisible after attacking you but they all just stand in the same spot so you know exactly where to throw an aoe to reveal them. And that's pretty much the best an AI can do.
Some suggestions would be...
-Have enemies break line of sight after attacking the player and try to end their turn in a spot that the player would have a hard time getting to. The game does a half decent job calculating an optimal path between 2 points so this shouldn't be difficult.
-Have enemies shroud their weak members (low hp archers, concentrating casters) with things like smoke arrows, darkness, fog. And when it's their turn they can move out of the cloud, attack the player, then go back in which will prevent them from being easily picked off with spells and ranged attacks.
-Give enemies a level of wizard or sorc. Having more enemies that can have the shield spell up for a few turns will help them survive MM volleys and being dogpiled on.
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journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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[*]Limit resting to safe areas
[*]Limit saving the game to long rests, no quicksaves allowed
[*]Make supplies harder to find, make them rot, or simply Increase the number of required food to rest
[*]Split required resting supplies between edibles and liquids
[*]Using Teleportation circles requires you to be standing next to one I've said this in EA, I will say it again. With the way the game is designed(some plot\companion story related to long rests), there should be camp places alongside with teleportation circles. So you can make long rest only when reach them and on hardcore mode game should make a save there. Meanwhile, supplies must be spent on short rests instead of long rests.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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I think these changes would go a long way:
1. Get rid of the insanely-too-good all-day-effect "elixirs"
2. Require party members to be next to each other in combat to send items to each other
3. Enforce the "one spell per turn" (with "bonus action spell slot spell + full action cantrip" as the only exception)
4. Allow swapping weapons for free once per comment but make it take a bonus action subsequently (not strictly 5E rules but I think in the best spirit of them)
5. Long rest restores all HP but only up to half hit dice (as in 5E rules)
6. Restrict teleport-to-camp to specific "safe" areas with obvious clear exit routes (I like the teleportation circle idea from @arion!)
Some other more-strict-5E things would help too (scrolls for just your own class's spells!)
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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Also, I think it might be interesting to have a checkbox to return to Larian's original idea of making you commit to particular companions at the end of act 1 (and again at the end of act 2). Yes, losing some companions might restrict how the story goes -- but, hey, that's life!
(I'd go so far as to include the "hirelings" in this -- or even make you choose at the beginning of the game if you want hirelings or companions -- and if you choose hirelings, ditch the "vessels" schtick and just let you create a full custom party.)
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Apr 2023
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Is it really that easy? I understand the system well, and I finished pathfinder Kingmaker and WotR on “hard” (with custom tailored parties tho). BG2 with SCS ofc, as well)) Also I never lost a battle during beta, when I was playing on patch 3 to try it out.
I will lose interest fast if combat will be a cake walk, should I play on max difficulty from start? From the presentation max difficulty seems immersion breaking tho, goblins loaded with explosive arrows and grenades and stuff…
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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if you're experienced crpg player, definatly play on Tactician. And even that one is too easy unfortunately ...
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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To make the game a real challenge you'd need to make a mode with multiclassing turned off. There are multiclass builds that dish out hundreds of damage in a single turn. Anything that is a challenge for a build like that would be unwinnable for someone playing one of the weaker pure-class builds. The power disparity in possible builds is just too huge a gap to properly balance for.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Aug 2023
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To make the game a real challenge you'd need to make a mode with multiclassing turned off. There are multiclass builds that dish out hundreds of damage in a single turn. Anything that is a challenge for a build like that would be unwinnable for someone playing one of the weaker pure-class builds. The power disparity in possible builds is just too huge a gap to properly balance for. I disagree there. Finished my 1st playthrough with Bard (college of lore) + cleric (life domain) + barbarian (berserker) + rouge (thief, sometimes in act 3 i took ranger - hunter in this slot). It's possible, and no need to multiclass. If i was able to finish game with that setup, i believe you can pick anything on tactical and have a success.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Jul 2023
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I agree, tactician is way too easy. Most fights are first try wins, even boss battles. I don't feel any need to use oils or elixirs. And I purely level and skill my characters for flavor instead of effectiveness, and still it is trivial. Not once I felt the need to use a defensive spell. And I even restrict and handicap myself. I am intentionally not summoning the 4-5 summons I could have every fight.
Last edited by Colt_Coffey; 25/08/23 06:31 AM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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Tactical is not easy.
If it's easy for you then good. But certainly not easy everyone.
Just because I can play this game while sitting upside down, one hand on my back, simultaneously cooking some nuggets, my two feet upward (yes, I'm *that* good), doesn't mean average people find it as easy as I did.
It's good balanced difficulty. We don't need 4200 AC enemies with 69000 BAB just for 23 people to be satisfied that this game is hard enough.
Maybe adding secret boss is a good option, something similar to PoE2 PoTD Ultimate Challenge.
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journeyman
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OP
journeyman
Joined: Oct 2020
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Tactical is not easy.
If it's easy for you then good. But certainly not easy everyone.
Just because I can play this game while sitting upside down, one hand on my back, simultaneously cooking some nuggets, my two feet upward (yes, I'm *that* good), doesn't mean average people find it as easy as I did.
It's good balanced difficulty. We don't need 4200 AC enemies with 69000 BAB just for 23 people to be satisfied that this game is hard enough.
Maybe adding secret boss is a good option, something similar to PoE2 PoTD Ultimate Challenge. Then dont play on Tactician. For people like you, there are 2 options which are easier. But for guys who enjoy challenges, there is no option. For experienced players Tactician is a joke.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Dec 2022
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Tactical is not easy.
If it's easy for you then good. But certainly not easy everyone.
Just because I can play this game while sitting upside down, one hand on my back, simultaneously cooking some nuggets, my two feet upward (yes, I'm *that* good), doesn't mean average people find it as easy as I did.
It's good balanced difficulty. We don't need 4200 AC enemies with 69000 BAB just for 23 people to be satisfied that this game is hard enough.
Maybe adding secret boss is a good option, something similar to PoE2 PoTD Ultimate Challenge. Then dont play on Tactician. For people like you, there are 2 options which are easier. But for guys who enjoy challenges, there is no option. For experienced players Tactician is a joke. I literally said it was a good balanced difficulty. And that it's not "easy" nor a joke. The game, the studios doesn't take into account that some people, some meaning not the majority of people can speedrun the game in tactician difficulty. Again, the game was too easy for me, I had to play with one hand, one finger, standing with two of my foot hovering in the air to make it a challenge. I had to kill ansur with baldur's gate stone which I bought from Tiefling child in Rivington so Ansur doesn't die in half turn. But just because it's easy for me, doesn't mean it is for everyone. If it wasn't clear already: Tactician is fine. Maybe add harder difficulty +10 to enemy roll difficulty variant, give tadpole power more severe penalty (to both stat and character appearance). Basically if you min max, the maximum roll you can get without advantage is 50/50 odds at maximum especially in early levels. Enemy can spam health potions, mirror image and blur. Double enemy movement speed and give disadvantage for every Athletic checks against enemy, but disadvantage for your athletic save (making enemies spam push more often and forcing you to pay attention for positioning). Also sanctuary, to make ambush obsolete. All enemy has sanctuary. And Drinking special universal resistance potion that holds for 2 rounds. Also exp needs to be nerfed, but rewards non-combat quest solutions/stealth. 175% more expensive potions (to make crafting relevant). No Scrolls on random storage, plus much expensive scrolls (so you forced to either learn it or use it once). Trader don't restock health potions. Long rest costs 200 food instead of mere 80. Food item more scarce, supply didn't restock on trader.
Last edited by Dext. Paladin; 25/08/23 07:46 AM.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Jul 2023
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instead of adding HP or enemy numbers, it would be more interesting to reduce numbers of long rest / time you can do (maybe by limiting food), prohibiting respecs, and limiting save-reloads. [*]Using Teleportation circles requires you to be standing next to one [*]Using Teleportation circles without resting causes psychic damage There's genuinely nothing "tactical" or "more challenging" about watching your party walk across an empty map that you already cleared 6 hours ago because you forgot to grab something. This is a terrible suggestion. Maybe this is to prevent vendor cheese or something, but I think one of the most boring aspects is forcing somebody to pointlessly walk from point A to B on an empty map they have already cleared dozens of times over for no reason. Its not like there is an exhaustion or attrition mechanic for walking, this just saves time and sanity.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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Tactical Gameplay and Difficulty
When it comes to tactical gameplay, even a slight grasp of strategy makes playing on Tactician mode feel like a stroll in the park. I haven't engaged in min-maxing or relied on save scumming during battles, yet the AI's lack of challenge is quite disappointing.
Abundance of Resources
The game's abundance of food is not helping matters. After every battle, you could practically take a long rest if desired. Personally, I prefer a different approach. Here I am in ACT 1, sitting on nearly 1000 units of food, and I haven't even cleared out the Goblins yet. Discovering the omission of the exhaustion system is disheartening; its inclusion would have added an extra layer of struggle and immersion.
Health and Healing
Health potions are overflowing in my inventory. I haven't even needed to use a spell slot for healing, and to be honest, potions are rarely my go-to solution. A short rest following a battle is often sufficient. Additionally, I can't help but wonder why enemies rarely utilize potions. Given the abundance of magical items and potions available, why don't they employ these resources too? The game inundates players with loot—weapons, scrolls, buffs—and exploiting the Sleight of Hand system for wealth and items is ludicrously simple. The question arises: Why do the average Goblins in the Goblin Camp wield subpar weapons when you can purchase or steal magical items from enemy traders there? Wouldn't the Goblins want better, shinier gear?
Game Difficulty and Appeal
I understand the rationale behind the game's design catering to a wide audience, which often results in lowering the difficulty. Yet, X-Com 2's highest difficulty provided a true challenge, and while it's a different genre, those who enjoyed X-Com would likely find pleasure in BG3. Thus, a comparison isn't completely unfounded. Admittedly, I comprehend that the game aims for broader success, which unfortunately often translates to easier gameplay. Nevertheless, the success of games like Elden Ring, while not as tough as their predecessors, contradicts this trend. I respect BG3 for its goals, but I can't shake the desire for a greater challenge. Despite mods that can increase enemy health and stats, they disrupt D&D 5e's balance, and altering the challenge requires smarter AI and a greater number of foes. One can only hope that potential modding tools will allow us to address this issue if they are released at all.
Example of failed AI and Immersion
For instance, consider the Goblin Camp. When you attack from above, the Goblins emerge from their tunnels with little resistance. Their AI is notably lacking. Furthermore, the supposedly fearsome Ogre poses no real threat; it simply stands against a wall. With a Strength of 22, it's reasonable to assume the Ogre could leap towards the upper area, adding complexity to the encounter. Regrettably, rationalizing the Ogre's behavior is required to maintain immersion; one could imagine it's too unintelligent to realize its jumping capability.
Future Prospects and Challenges
Can we expect these issues to be addressed, possibly through modding tools? My hope is for a consistently challenging game, with Tactician mode falling short of the mark. An honor mode, consistent with the unpredictability of RNGames, is something I seek.
Collective Input for Improvement
This discussion has generated numerous valuable suggestions to amplify the struggle, difficulty, and immersion of the game. Combining these suggestions with moves toward adhering more closely to 5e rules, introducing a fourth difficulty option, and incorporating an honor mode that prevents exploits would potentially create the perfect game.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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Limit Ressources especially food. That would make the game so much more interesting. You would need to Plan your rests more carefully.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Despite mods that can increase enemy health and stats, they disrupt D&D 5e's balance, and altering the challenge requires smarter AI and a greater number of foes. One can only hope that potential modding tools will allow us to address this issue if they are released at all. 5E's balance is already disrupted by many of Larian's homebrew systems and the the overabundance of way too powerful items. When these things get addressed, you may find the challenge more suited to your tastes. We also need granular options regarding difficulty rather than having just 3 game modes.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
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This is imo also a problem with Larians combat as puzzle design.
Once you solved the puzzle its very easy, tactican or not.
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Aug 2023
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[/quote]
The problem is that the game puts you in unwinnable situations either due to design and/or AI. There are a lot of situations where you face 10, 15, or 20+ mobs at once in a small area with a narrow entryway and the enemy AI may just choose one PC to beat up on. In that case, there is nothing you can do and they just die and hope they choose differently next time, which encourages save scumming. In a tabletop game, unless your DM is just an ahole, this won't happen, but with a computer making these decisions, IMO they should do something to even the odds a bit and prevent this from happening. Players shouldn't be dying during encounters the first time there solely because they didn't know the fight was coming or the mechanics of it, there should be some way to adapt to it without getting killed. Again the way it is now in places encourages people to go in, die, then try again rather than giving them a chance to adapt.[/quote]
I couldn't agree more.
That's also why most of us split our teams, or at least leave the mage or healer two steps behind.
However, I enjoy being outnumbered.
Act 1, Goblins HQ:
"Oh dear, he survived Astarion, and he has his own drum to call for help!"
Now, I have to kill everybody! Bad monk, very bad monk ^^
At least Astarion did his scouting job, and I know what possibilities I have.
Good stuff, thumbs up. Larian
Obviously, there is not much you can do in this outnumber situations without a wall spell, scrolls, or dark arrows.
You just have to find or create a safe zone with one or two ways in.
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